Panzer Messers

[Killgar]

How very cool!

I agree. It's interesting how modern the design looks for the 1800's.

That patent is very interesting and a treat to see. Thank you Killgar!

You're welcome . I was shocked to see it. The first thing I did was look up the patent to see if it was real. After all, anyone can create a fake patent drawing. But it's real. It's interesting to see how far back the concept of an OTF auto goes. But there could be even older concept/versions than that.

.

The 1866 Dirk Knife is intriguing, and brings two questions to mind -- first, was this knife ever manufactured?
And second, are any known to currently exist?
.

I've searched a few times over the past few years trying to find the oldest OTF auto knives, but I've never seen a Hibbard brand version, or any others that match the age and design.

The oldest single-action OTF's I've seen are German and Italian trapdoor knives. The oldest double-action OTF I've seen is the "Colorado Sprint". One of those is featured in the movie "The Kremlin Letter" (pic below). The movie was released in February 1970, but was filmed in 1969, so D/A OTF's are at least as old as 1969. I don't know if the originals were called "Colorado Sprint", or if the name came later (etched on the blades, pic below).

the kremlin letter.jpg (105.12 KiB) Viewed 444 times

colorado_sprint (1).jpg (23.17 KiB) Viewed 444 times

[JulesVane]

Some past sales with descriptions on a couple knives listed above. Naturally, I can't vouch for the info in the descriptions....

Panzer Messer- https://applevalleyknives.com/products/ ... atic-knife

Similar to the "Colorado Sprint" (no etch)- https://applevalleyknives.com/products/ ... knife-1215

[Killgar]

Some past sales with descriptions on a couple knives listed above. Naturally, I can't vouch for the info in the descriptions....

Panzer Messer- https://applevalleyknives.com/products/ ... atic-knife

Similar to the "Colorado Sprint" (no etch)- https://applevalleyknives.com/products/ ... knife-1215

I've always regarded the knife in The Kremlin Letter as the earliest D/A OTF that I knew of only because the movie itself can be attributed to a specific year. Being filmed in 1969 provides a definite point in the D/A OTF timeline. Mike Lathan (Latham Vintage Knives) has one without the etch that he dates between 1965-1975. But again, The Kremlin Letter at least proves that this model existed in 1969.

In regards to the Panzer Messer, I was under the impression that it was a spring-out/gravity-close knife like the old Italian trap door knives, as opposed to spring-out/spring-close (a true D/A). But it appears I was wrong about that.

In any event, I've seen the first catalog page below identified as being from 1965 by multiple sources (including Bill DeShivs). So between the Panzer Messer on the right, and the D/A OTF to it's left, this narrows down the timeline a bit more on D/A OTF's.

Unfortunately hard proof is difficult to come by, if not impossible, which really sucks when trying to research old switchblades .

1_Anton Wingen 1965 catalog.jpg (68.6 KiB) Viewed 401 times

And for whatever it's worth, this was identified as an IHER catalog page. The poster said it's from the 1960's, but unfortunately wasn't any more specific on the year. It shows the same type of black handle D/A OTF as the page above.

So perhaps it's a contest between the Panzer Messer and this other German knife for the oldest D/A OTF.

zIHER.jpg (33.34 KiB) Viewed 401 times

Now this is what I consider "hard proof" (dated documentation). It's a dated IHER/AITOR price list that shows one of those black handle D/A OTF'S. Dated 1966. Of course this only proves that such knives existed in 1966, not that it's the oldest D/A OTF.

And in case anyone was interested and didn't know, IHER stands for "Izaguirre Hermanos", (Izaguirre Brothers), the founders of AITOR.

Screenshot 2025-11-03 233839.png (222.78 KiB) Viewed 396 times

IMG_1716.jpg (183.69 KiB) Viewed 396 times

IMG_1715.jpg (196.32 KiB) Viewed 396 times

[JulesVane]

Wow, talk about jogging one's memory! I completely forgot I even had an Othello marked OTF that's second from right in the 1965 catalog. Now that you've reminded me Killgar, I do recall an old SD Forum post where Bill did say his was from 1965. I totally forgot about it! I honestly never put a lot of thought into it, though it does work fine.

[Tom19176]

Nice knife Chris!

[OldIsGold]

Wow, talk about jogging one's memory! I completely forgot I even had an Othello marked OTF that's second from right in the 1965 catalog. Now that you've reminded me Killgar, I do recall an old SD Forum post where Bill did say his was from 1965. I totally forgot about it! I honestly never put a lot of thought into it, though it does work fine.

Did you know you can twist the button to the side and it acts as a safety?

That’s the best part of this hobby. Owning a variety of vintage knives and holding them and getting a feel for them by using the mechanisms and seeing how the knives work. And discovering little things like hidden safeties etc.

That seems so wild that people would be part of a collecting community yet not even be a collector or buy or own any of any knives.

[JulesVane]

Tom- Thank you! I believe it’s a decent example and a collectible piece. D/A action works nice. It’s in good shape. But, the thought of protecting yourself with it is questionable . Unless of course, I could thwart off my attacker by offering to butter his toast . I find it to be a rather fragile build.
OldIsGold- Thank you for that safety information, as I had absolutely no idea of that! When I acquired it, I did a little research like usual when I get something I’m not familiar with, and looked through SD Forum posts. Found one thread that Bill started, I believe he called “What’s In Bill’s Drawer?” (or similar title), and his caught the attention of a few. So, short conversation about it and I remember Bill saying it was a 1965 piece. After that, I put the knife away and forgot all about it until Killgar posted that 1965 catalog page. I dug it out at about 4:am to take the photo. I only fired and retracted that knife a total of 3 times since I’ve owned it, due to its rather fragile build quality. Not that I “play” with any of my collection, like “click-therapy”. I certainly do appreciate the information about the safety. I can’t say I’ll test that out though at this time. With my luck, I’ll twist the button right off, and Bill is busy enough with repairs!

[Bill DeShivs]

The button on mine doesn't twist.

[OldIsGold]

The button on mine doesn't twist.

Interesting. Maybe mine was broken or earlier or later change. I think it lifted slightly then rotated. No matter. Just fun playing with these old knives…

[JulesVane]

The button on mine doesn't twist.

Interesting. Maybe mine was broken or earlier or later change. I think it lifted slightly then rotated. No matter. Just fun playing with these old knives…

I hope you didn’t picture me attempting to twist mine . “Mama didn’t raise no fool, and if she did, it was my brother!”

[jim d,]

Killgar - I spy the two models of 8cm leverlocks in your photo of the 1965 Wingen catalog. Note to all - that is the size of the well known Hubertus "Liliput Springer" Of particular note is the one with the spear point blade. My 8cm Hubertus knives as well as all I have seen have clip point blades. Two new things for me; non-Hubertus 8cm leverlocks, and an 8cm leverlock with a spear point blade. Is this news to anyone else?

Chris -“Mama didn’t raise no fool, and if she did, it was my brother!” and “I’m fat, but I identify as skinny. I’m trans-slender” made me chuckle. And that is great looking Othello!

I have never cultivated an interest in OTFs or gravity knives, but the recent threads here are causing to consider expanding the scope of my collecting.

Jim

[OldIsGold]

Purchased in Germany.

[OldIsGold]

How very cool!

I agree. It's interesting how modern the design looks for the 1800's.

That patent is very interesting and a treat to see. Thank you Killgar!

You're welcome . I was shocked to see it. The first thing I did was look up the patent to see if it was real. After all, anyone can create a fake patent drawing. But it's real. It's interesting to see how far back the concept of an OTF auto goes. But there could be even older concept/versions than that.

.

The 1866 Dirk Knife is intriguing, and brings two questions to mind -- first, was this knife ever manufactured?
And second, are any known to currently exist?
.

I've searched a few times over the past few years trying to find the oldest OTF auto knives, but I've never seen a Hibbard brand version, or any others that match the age and design.

The oldest single-action OTF's I've seen are German and Italian trapdoor knives. The oldest double-action OTF I've seen is the "Colorado Sprint". One of those is featured in the movie "The Kremlin Letter" (pic below). The movie was released in February 1970, but was filmed in 1969, so D/A OTF's are at least as old as 1969. I don't know if the originals were called "Colorado Sprint", or if the name came later (etched on the blades, pic below).


the kremlin letter.jpg
colorado_sprint (1).jpg

[Killgar]

Here's an addition to the history of the Colorado Sprint model. This is the only one of that model I've seen with the ERN mark.

kjnnvv5pbrwa1.jpg (61.37 KiB) Viewed 163 times

[OldIsGold]

Here's an addition to the history of the Colorado Sprint model. This is the only one of that model I've seen with the ERN mark.


kjnnvv5pbrwa1.jpg