Explain it to me, please

[ILikeStilettos]

When explaining my hobby of collecting switchblades to someone not familiar or a newbie with lots of questions, I frequently allude to collecting something like cars or paintings. All analogies break down if carried too far, but in general these work to explain the fascination. Nevertheless, I really don't understand the excitement over a particular tang stamp (which may in fact be an etch, engraving or stamp, and which technically usually appears on the ricasso, rather than the tang ... but I won't argue the vernacular.)

I'm particularly confused by the reaction to Bernie's recent acquisition of the E. F. Hörster Solingen knife and even Zollos's George Wostenholm IXL 1830-1836 W Crown. I can certainly appreciate that these are rare knives, even antique knives. I am, by the way, posting this here on TB and not on the 'other website' because I'm sure many folks there will find the question inherently offensive. Trust me, please, I'm just trying to follow the logic. If we were talking cars, most very wealthy and passionate collectors would not have interest in a King Midget, Messerschmitt, Reo, or even Pierce Arrow. They all fit the old and rare category, but practically no one gives them much thought. If we were talking paintings, the big names would count: Rembrandt, DaVinci, Picasso, Dali ... and many folks would be ignorant of Gainsborough, Whistler, Remington, etc.

To stretch the analogies a bit, I could argue that since these rarities exist only in handful quantities and probably represent a lifetimes savings for most folks, we have to consider less expensive reproductions. You can buy a Cobra, Cord, or Stutz (for ridiculous money) but something that you can still reasonably drive and enjoy and with the clear understanding that it is not an original. Many homes feature favored pieces of art, which are prints or copies of the real McCoy, even museums have particularly good copies with appropriate provenance.

I have heard it said that the "best of the Italians" are still being produced by Campolin in the way of the 50's originals, and I own several myself. I, like Don and John are particularly fond of the ones bearing Renzo Pascutto's trademarks. They are often no more expensive than the AGA housemark, but I just like them better because I view them as the best of the best. If you are reading this post from one of the countries where possession of cars or art are illegal and subject to confiscation (you see what I am driving at) then you have my abject sympathies.

Even in liberal Oklahoma, I love these high end knives. That doesn't mean however that I hold them in such reverence that I won't change them to make something even more beautiful or unique. Likewise I own top drawer reproductions from Mr. Cameron and Mr. Havlin, whom I believed have progressed far beyond what the Italians build. I'm not knocking the Italians, but I believe that they pay undue homage to tradition and hence do not progress beyond what they have done for all of their talented lives.

Even with all of this, I'm still unsatisfied. I see knives and talk about knives with friends in the collecting world. Invariably, they each have a story about a neat knife they've hunted for, or some grail that would make life better. They inspire me and send me off to the CAD program. I have always said that I had ideas but not something that I had a good mental picture of. My friend, Killbucket, always said that he couldn't come up with the seed ideas, but if I gave him a start, then he could do most anything. Right before he shuffled off this mortal coil he would send me sketches on napkins which were new and wonderful ideas out of a very fertile imagination. So that perception on his part was wrong. I am finding that when I draw in CAD, I can do virtually anything, and verify all the internal parts, bend springs, rotate blades and guards, everything to completely verify a knife before we make the first cut in steel. I've seen my time to design a knife shrink from days to hours, and I am starting to get that clear mental picture. I was talking to Duke yesterday, and I really want my most recent one built, because it's really excellent (according to the Dave rating system, 10 of 10, but that's just me!)

When I comment on knives, and say that it would be cool to build one like it ... it's like I farted in church. The silence is deafening. I am a huge fan of Jim Brown 257's work. Jeremy is willing to try anything! Moreover, his build are great. He doesn't have an established audience and he doesn't need to live in his little box where he won't consider another idea, like many of the big dogs do. I'm not naming names, you know who you are. I've been told to leave this aspect of knife work to the experts and mostly you haven't seen what I am currently doing. I'm ignoring the suggestion and hope to have things to show you very soon. I won't publish my designs and subject myself to the vindictive critacisms, plus it will spoil the surprises. One friend told me that I had to quit drawing bolsters flush with the scales because it didn't look vintage. This is a tweak. I can easily accommodate him, but my preference is flush. So things are coming.

In the meantime, explain to me why you want a certain stamp and original knife rather than a high quality reproduction where you get to choose ALL the details.

Best regards,

[Rey Zhourej]

Interesting read Dave. I suppose I could liken it to the "Traditional" movement in the hot rod fraternity ;i.e.:those who choose to build a hot rod using nothing but original parts from the era the car was originally constructed. This may include brakes of questionable operation;bias ply tires a half century old(reproductions JUST won't do),and speed equipment that has long ago passed it's usefulness. Anything other than that criteria is quickly judged a sell out or(heaven forbid)"NON -Traditional"
As someone who has been collecting knives for more than 60 years now(still have my first knife I bought at the age of 10)I guess I don't really fir the mold of the so-called "traditionalist". Although I am happy when I find a knife or razor that is near-200 years old I enjoy it because I marvel at how long it has survived the ravages of time in such good shape(or any shape at all).If others consider it valuable that is nice too but I don't collect them to sell but rather for my own satisfaction.
A lot of the automatics that I own I have had for many years and some aren't in the greatest of shape.One that I got in high school(late 1950's)is missing the lock button and I have told myself I will get around to fixing it.........someday. Some I have practiced my file work on which I am sure the "cognoscenti" would be horrified at. No matter;I enjoy it.
Sometimes you have to marvel at the construction of an early knife taking into consideration the conditions that the makers had to work with. A friend of mine(and fellow knife collector)owns an original Michael Price ring guard dagger that dates to the early 1850's.Even though the carved ivory handle is missing a piece the workmanship in the blade is incredible.The double edged blade is ground perfectly straight on both sides with no waviness whatsoever;the engraving is simple but flawless. Considering that there were no electric powered grinding wheels I wonder how this was achieved.
Got off the track a little bit;sorry.

[ILikeStilettos]

Interesting read Dave. I suppose I could liken it to the "Traditional" movement in the hot rod fraternity ;i.e.:those who choose to build a hot rod using nothing but original parts from the era the car was originally constructed. This may include brakes of questionable operation;bias ply tires a half century old(reproductions JUST won't do),and speed equipment that has long ago passed it's usefulness. Anything other than that criteria is quickly judged a sell out or(heaven forbid)"NON -Traditional"
As someone who has been collecting knives for more than 60 years now(still have my first knife I bought at the age of 10)I guess I don't really fir the mold of the so-called "traditionalist". Although I am happy when I find a knife or razor that is near-200 years old I enjoy it because I marvel at how long it has survived the ravages of time in such good shape(or any shape at all).If others consider it valuable that is nice too but I don't collect them to sell but rather for my own satisfaction.
A lot of the automatics that I own I have had for many years and some aren't in the greatest of shape.One that I got in high school(late 1950's)is missing the lock button and I have told myself I will get around to fixing it.........someday. Some I have practiced my file work on which I am sure the "cognoscenti" would be horrified at. No matter;I enjoy it.
Sometimes you have to marvel at the construction of an early knife taking into consideration the conditions that the makers had to work with. A friend of mine(and fellow knife collector)owns an original Michael Price ring guard dagger that dates to the early 1850's.Even though the carved ivory handle is missing a piece the workmanship in the blade is incredible.The double edged blade is ground perfectly straight on both sides with no waviness whatsoever;the engraving is simple but flawless. Considering that there were no electric powered grinding wheels I wonder how this was achieved.
Got off the track a little bit;sorry.

No, I think you're right on point, Rey. If you want a traditional knife repaired in the traditional way, Bill seems to have a lock on that. I have heard some complaints about how he does things, but I chalk these up to people who are excessively traditional. I have a friend who restores Pierce's and he removed all the chrome and went back to nickel plated because that was traditional. The guy who replaced the nickel with chrome no doubt had had enough with nickel fussiness. My friends mentality on this is inflexible, and I think many of Bill's detractors are this way. Pat is perhaps the leading builder of moderns, but in the traditional way. Panak was very good, but now has helpers and CNC equipment. Everyone definitely does things THEIR WAY.

Never be afraid to chime in or give your take on things. I appreciate it, and I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want the unvarnished truth.

[Bill DeShivs]

Dave- you sure like to see yourself in print!
And, you never miss a chance at a dig, no matter how small.
I have heard complaints about you, too.

[Rey Zhourej]

No, I think you're right on point, Rey. If you want a traditional knife repaired in the traditional way, Bill seems to have a lock on that. I have heard some complaints about how he does things, but I chalk these up to people who are excessively traditional. I have a friend who restores Pierce's and he removed all the chrome and went back to nickel plated because that was traditional. The guy who replaced the nickel with chrome no doubt had had enough with nickel fussiness. My friends mentality on this is inflexible, and I think many of Bill's detractors are this way. Pat is perhaps the leading builder of moderns, but in the traditional way. Panak was very good, but now has helpers and CNC equipment. Everyone definitely does things THEIR WAY.

Never be afraid to chime in or give your take on things. I appreciate it, and I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want the unvarnished truth.

In regard to your friend who restores Pierce-Arrows; I can understand the need to be as close as possible to original if a customer is paying top dollar to have their car restored. A couple cases in point:
A friend of mine in Massachusetts was doing a restoration on a Type 57C Bugatti for a VERY well known customer and one of the problems they had was that a previous owner had polished the engine block and cylinder head. As this was going to Pebble Beach they needed to restore the finish on the aluminum block. After several failed attempts one of their technicians made up a chasing tool using a couple of old chisels and laboriously hand chased the entire surface! Took a solid week to do but it looked for all the world original afterwards.Won at the Beach that year.
Another time I was involved in the restoration of an original 1966 Ford GT-40 Le Mans car. My work consisted of replacing the original painted lettering and striping. As there were precious few pictures of this particular car(it became a parts car when the improperly attached rear section blew off at 150 mph in practice)and only raced twice after it returned from France I was forced to make estimates of the size of the paintwork and have it approved by the person overseeing the restoration. I spent a whole day laying out work and getting his approval before I could even lay a brush down!
In the interests of authenticity we also had to do something unique. The five cars that went were all painted the same color bronze and to make them more easily identifiable at night(this was a 24 hour race)the top of the front section was sprayed with a different fluorescent color(this one was green)using a spray can! When it was done some overspray had escaped into the driver's side door(RHD car)and the overseer was adamant about us getting the proper amount of overspray into the doorjamb! I also had a problem in that when painting the number on the front I could only lean on the areas of the car that were reinforced underneath as the aluminum body was so thin you could dent it with your fingernail!Had to paint it standing on a platform with one hand and the other steadying myself on the car. Car is now residing in the Indianapolis Motor sports Museum.Here is a pic of me lettering it.
As to doing it your own way I also striped a 1937 Mercedes-Benz 540K roadster that had been turned into a HOT ROD! Long story on that one!

[ILikeStilettos]

Dave- you sure like to see yourself in print!

I'd send you a copy of my novel, but you probably wouldn't enjoy it.

And, you never miss a chance at a dig, no matter how small.
I have heard complaints about you, too.

I was only complimentary to you. Are you that paranoid? Are you going to delete your response and mine for the "good of the forum" again? You really need to get over yourself, Mickey.

[ILikeStilettos]

A friend of mine in Massachusetts was doing a restoration on a Type 57C Bugatti for a VERY well known customer and one of the problems they had was that a previous owner had polished the engine block and cylinder head. As this was going to Pebble Beach they needed to restore the finish on the aluminum block. After several failed attempts one of their technicians made up a chasing tool using a couple of old chisels and laboriously hand chased the entire surface! Took a solid week to do but it looked for all the world original afterwards.Won at the Beach that year.

Another time I was involved in the restoration of an original 1966 Ford GT-40 Le Mans car. My work consisted of replacing the original painted lettering and striping. As there were precious few pictures of this particular car(it became a parts car when the improperly attached rear section blew off at 150 mph in practice)and only raced twice after it returned from France I was forced to make estimates of the size of the paintwork and have it approved by the person overseeing the restoration. I spent a whole day laying out work and getting his approval before I could even lay a brush down!

In the interests of authenticity we also had to do something unique. The five cars that went were all painted the same color bronze and to make them more easily identifiable at night(this was a 24 hour race)the top of the front section was sprayed with a different fluorescent color(this one was green)using a spray can! When it was done some overspray had escaped into the driver's side door(RHD car)and the overseer was adamant about us getting the proper amount of overspray into the doorjamb! I also had a problem in that when painting the number on the front I could only lean on the areas of the car that were reinforced underneath as the aluminum body was so thin you could dent it with your fingernail!Had to paint it standing on a platform with one hand and the other steadying myself on the car. Car is now residing in the Indianapolis Motor sports Museum.Here is a pic of me lettering it.

As to doing it your own way I also striped a 1937 Mercedes-Benz 540K roadster that had been turned into a HOT ROD! Long story on that one!

The last vintage Packard I saw was the kind with no top over the chauffeur and an enclosed cabin for the passengers. The guy had done in in purple metalflake with a California rake and a set of deep dish mags. It had an open hood with a full dress big block Chevy.

I do get the idea of being original. I won't mention the Pierce guy making some tools that were such careful reproductions that the Concours d'Elegance judges ruled them as genuine.

I'm just saying there is a place for original, and a place for reproductions, even deliberated altered from originals. I have a friend with a nice 427 Cobra, but it has a modern six speed and fuel injection. It's still a real mind blower and gives me a sense of why the originals from Carol are held in such high esteem. I may start with an original, usually only from pictures, but I put my spin on it. Top quality modern materials and modern techniques fit well because I am designing the best knife possible.

You know those Grizzlies that sell for thousands of dollars? Well, I have designed one that anyone familiar with an original will spot as a reproduction, but it will also leave no doubt as to what the inspiration is. I just want to make the knife available to the average guy, and by the way, I corrected some issues. Is that audacious? Every original I have seen has a shorter blade than the handle will accommodate, so I made mine fit better. Also, they were all about 9" long or so, mine's an 11". I took the Baby Griz style blade, but made the curves a bit more pronounced to make it more wicked. There had been posts about Grizzly kits so I offered the plans gratis to one of the big makers who said he wanted to make one from a scarcely available kit. He asked me if I wanted a completed knife or a kit, and I replied neither. I was just trying to help. I know how this guy works, he does a free hand sketch in pencil and starts to build. I offered clean and well specified plans. He then replied that he had been kidding about wanting to build one.

So on the eve of launch some of my designs (eve being months, still, but a lot of the details are worked out) I wrote this post trying to get a feel for the market. Let me be clear: if nobody ever wanted a knife of my design, that would be perfectly fine with me. I would still be doing what I do, because I get a charge out of it. I could care less about selling anything. I am finding that if I want certain knives a certain way, I have to create them. There's nothing new under the sun, they say. Every knife I create is a combination of other ideas that have appeared before, or my attempt to provide an engineering correction for something I didn't care for. The designs come from things that I blunder across, that may not even be real knives, like that Assassin's Creed sleeve dagger. I would do this anyway. I also happen to want some of these knives. I have a partner who is going to build some of them for me. That's it. I'm not trying to insult anyone, or degrade the efforts of those that have gone before. I just feel that they didn't go far enough for me. So I got involved in a way that makes sense to me. I just wonder if anyone else cares a tinker's damn.

[ILikeStilettos]

I guess if anyone is entitled to hijack a thread, as the author, I am. Rey, you have my envy and admiration. Ford GT's are amazing machines and rare as hens teeth. If I ever saw one in person I'd feel like I'd hit the lottery. When you add in rare variants like the DeThomaso Pantera or the GT-40, that's double lottery time. To have the skills and the opportunity to have actually put hands on one ... wow, that's astronomical.

Thank you so much for the picture, and I'd bet I'd recognize the owners name, like a Bill Gates or Jay Leno, somebody up there in the stratosphere. I bow to you, sir.

[Rey Zhourej]

Thanks for the kind words Dave. Actually I'm not sure who owns the car;I was contracted by the guys who did the cosmetic restoration(203 Custom Car Works in Ypsilanti MI)to do the striping and lettering. They were contracted by a gentleman in Plymouth MI who did the mechanicals and has since passed away. The car is currently residing in the Indianapolis Motorsports Museum where it has been since the late 1960's. Kind of a strange tale behind it.
When the car was first put there it was painted black and had the #2 painted on it to simulate Carroll Shelby's GT-40 that was destroyed in an accident. It sat there for years until the owner decided it should be restored to it's original configuration.Mechanically it was in pretty good shape and still had the original Holman & Moody 427 side oiler but the trans axle was incorrect.It was an early car that originally had a 4 speed trans-axle but somewhere along the line had a 5 speed trans-axle installed.Finally one was found at Ford Motor Co apparently stashed away in a corner.
The engine is rated at about 385 horsepower which doesn't seem like a lot compared to today's cars but it is also propelling a car that only weighs about 1200 lbs.They fired the car up in the shop one day and the noise was unreal;setting off a couple car alarms in the parking lot.
I really enjoyed painting this car and have done one other race car;that one for Roger Penske. It was a rebuilt version(the original tub was destroyed in a crash but the engine and some suspension pieces were original)of the 1972 Indy 500 winner driven by Mark Donahue. I had been contracted to do just the original stripes on it but wound up doing most of the lettering as well. That one is sitting in Penske's museum in Arizona now.

[fastr19]

tooooo mannny wooorrrrdddds.

[ILikeStilettos]

tooooo mannny wooorrrrdddds.

You're paraphrasing Amadeus, aren't you, Allen? I'll be happy to get back to switchblades, if someone will pick up on that.

[METALGOD]

Hi Dave i have a pretty simple response to your question people collect what they like , you like top end reproductions where as someone else may like vintage originals (no matter what the condition) , its all about personal preference and nothing more.

[Viking45]

Back in the early 2000's when I was buying knives every paycheck I wanted the best I could afford (many times that meant no more than 200 bucks) then when work started slowing down I learned to be happy with less.
Fact is I was pleased with Frank B's and Renzo Beltrame stilettos. I was always partial to modern autos and fixed blade knives but wanted a few nice stilettos, usually just your basic stuff. I had good luck buying from trusted sellers on Blade Auction and all mine had pretty scales, smooth locks,opened quick etc.

Never had a desire to pay big bucks for a vintage or a custom. My Stray Dog (Ron) and Bill's custom Leverletto was good enough for my custom wants.
This sounds like I am down-playing the quality but fact is they are the cream of the crop knives in my switchblade collection.
I wouldn't take 500 bucks for my Mexican Ron made or my Leverletto Bill made.

If the person has the means to buy what he wants I say more power to you. For me? A good ole Frank B or Renzo Beltrame is just fine.
There are still lots on my wish list- An AGA Siciliano, a Frank B 11" swinger, a Frank B 11" pick lock and maybe a couple more nice 13" Frank B's like a blond 13" dagger and a 13" Ron Dog custom.

I don't see any of this happening any time soon but if it never materializes I will be ok.

Dave (ILS) you should be proud of your collection and buy whatever you damn well want. I mean hey, it ain't gonna make you any prettier to look at or any more pleasant to be around.
I kid you brother, I am proud to call you a friend...just not on an open forum
Despite what others say about you, you are alright in my book Cheers buddy. Dave (the good looking one)

[tr4252]

I agree, let everyone collect what they like. It amazes me sometimes what does and does not become popular. Aurora Famous Fighters model airplane kits were 69 - 79 cents in the early 60's; now a first run Japanese Zero in unopened condition can go for over $1000.00. But it's still just 17 cents worth of plastic and a nice cardboard box.

When I was making custom knives some years back, I believed I was doing it with profit in mind, but The Girlfriend From Hell made me realize I was really doing it to get the kind of knives I couldn't get any other way. I like the idea that there are so many different people with such diverse interests (if it doesn't lead to conflict). It gives us so many options to enjoy life.

Hmmmm, it's Thanksgiving eve and I just drank a Yuengling Black & Tan (I don't drink much), the stock market is roaring, etc., so take that into account regarding my exuberance.

Happy Holiday Cluster, everybody.

Tom

[fastr19]

tooooo mannny wooorrrrdddds.

You're paraphrasing Amadeus, aren't you, Allen? I'll be happy to get back to switchblades, if someone will pick up on that.

Brevity is the soul of wit.