Stag Transitional from Maniago

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JimBrown257
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by JimBrown257 »

I am pretty sure they changed the blades to swedge (or the occasional flatgrind) because of knife laws. One of the dumber knife laws some countries have is about blade type. Like daggers and bayos were illegal but swedge or fgs were fine. They made the tranistionals with swedges to sell to a few more markets.
Quaero
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by Quaero »

JimBrown257 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:58 am
Quaero wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:17 am While many think in terms of a transitional as being a swivel bolster model as JimBrown stated, I tend to think more in the vein of a time period change as JulesVane described quite well. Basically a transition of one design to another.
Logically, that would be what it means: anything between an original plicklock and the modern swivel Italian. But the way it is meant by collectors, like a capital-T Transitional, is a knife that is just like the original picklock but with a swivel bolster.

The reason that is important is that it means it is a swivel-bolster with the quality of a 50s picklock.
Anyone is certainly free to use their own terminology, but I can assure you that the three fellows who wrote "Switchblades of Italy" put much thought and discussion as group into that book, which included the meaning of a transitional knife. Those guys agreed that the words "transitional knife" should really refer to various evolutionary time frames rather than one specific mechanical change such as a swivel bolster.
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JimBrown257
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by JimBrown257 »

I think you are misunderstanding what they were talking about in that book. They are talking about (small-t) tranisitonal knives that were somewhere on the evolutionary ladder between original 50s picklocks and the modern unlined stainless steel swivel bolster modern button set up knives. In that respect, all knives are transitionals (besides for the very first and very last models ever made).

When collectors talk about a (capital-T) "Transitional" knife, they are talking about a very specific type of knife made during a relatively short period of time after 1958. These ones are just like the 50s picklocks, just with with swivel bolsters and swedge blades.

If you want to test this for yourself, try selling an early 80s swivel bolster to a seasoned collector while describing it as a "Transitional" and see how they respond.

I do agree that giving that specific knife a name that also has a general meaning is confusing. If we were just coming up with the name now I might have suggested something different.
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JimBrown257
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by JimBrown257 »

Here are four 13"s. The one on the left is from the 50s, the second is from the 60s, the third is from the 70s (maybe 80s) and the fourth is from the 90s.

The first is your standard picklock. The second is a legit Transitional; the only differences are the swivel bolster and the swedge blade. The third is very similar to the second but it has a modern button set up (notice the button is farther up the scale). The forth is a standard modern knife (just with brass bolsters). The third is technically a knife that has features that were transitioning from the picklock to the modern knife but the modern button set up means it is not a true Transitional like the second one.
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JulesVane
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by JulesVane »

JimBrown257 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:44 am I think you are misunderstanding what they were talking about in that book.
:lol:
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"By accepting you as you are, I do not necessarily abandon all hope of your improving"- My Wife (1963-Present)
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fastr19
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by fastr19 »

JimBrown257 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:44 am I think you are misunderstanding what they were talking about in that book. They are talking about (small-t) tranisitonal knives that were somewhere on the evolutionary ladder between original 50s picklocks and the modern unlined stainless steel swivel bolster modern button set up knives. In that respect, all knives are transitionals (besides for the very first and very last models ever made).

When collectors talk about a (capital-T) "Transitional" knife, they are talking about a very specific type of knife made during a relatively short period of time after 1958. These ones are just like the 50s picklocks, just with with swivel bolsters and swedge blades.

If you want to test this for yourself, try selling an early 80s swivel bolster to a seasoned collector while describing it as a "Transitional" and see how they respond.

I do agree that giving that specific knife a name that also has a general meaning is confusing. If we were just coming up with the name now I might have suggested something different.
You are talking to one of the authors.
Quaero
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by Quaero »

JimBrown257 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:44 am I think you are misunderstanding what they were talking about in that book. They are talking about (small-t) tranisitonal knives that were somewhere on the evolutionary ladder between original 50s picklocks and the modern unlined stainless steel swivel bolster modern button set up knives. In that respect, all knives are transitionals (besides for the very first and very last models ever made).

When collectors talk about a (capital-T) "Transitional" knife, they are talking about a very specific type of knife made during a relatively short period of time after 1958. These ones are just like the 50s picklocks, just with with swivel bolsters and swedge blades.

If you want to test this for yourself, try selling an early 80s swivel bolster to a seasoned collector while describing it as a "Transitional" and see how they respond.

I do agree that giving that specific knife a name that also has a general meaning is confusing. If we were just coming up with the name now I might have suggested something different.
I wrote a response which seems to have disappeared, so apologies if this is redundant.
Well, there's really no misunderstanding since I am one of the authors of "S.O.I." and if you ask around, I believe I qualify as a "seasoned collector".
Again, please feel free to use any term you wish to describe a certain type of knife, but others might use certain terms differently.
Quaero
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by Quaero »

JimBrown257 wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 3:58 am Here are four 13"s. The one on the left is from the 50s, the second is from the 60s, the third is from the 70s (maybe 80s) and the fourth is from the 90s.

The first is your standard picklock. The second is a legit Transitional; the only differences are the swivel bolster and the swedge blade. The third is very similar to the second but it has a modern button set up (notice the button is farther up the scale). The forth is a standard modern knife (just with brass bolsters). The third is technically a knife that has features that were transitioning from the picklock to the modern knife but the modern button set up means it is not a true Transitional like the second one.
Nice looking group of knives.

Good to see a couple other friends and night owls, JulesVane and fastr19. :)
portlandmike
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by portlandmike »

this is a great thread ! I'm always learning here
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JimBrown257
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by JimBrown257 »

Quaero wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:20 am I am one of the authors of "S.O.I." and if you ask around, I believe I qualify as a "seasoned collector".
Again, please feel free to use any term you wish to describe a certain type of knife, but others might use certain terms differently.
Then you have to know how the term "Transitional" has come to be used by collectors. If it doesn't mean something fairly specific than it is kind of meaningless as virtually all knives are some sort of transition from one model to another. The standard 50s picklock (like the MII on the left in my pic) could be considered a transitional as it evolved from the earlier flatguards, which themselves were variations of earlier knives.
rithvich
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by rithvich »

JimBrown257 wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 4:36 am
Quaero wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:20 am The standard 50s picklock (like the MII on the left in my pic) could be considered a transitional as it evolved from the earlier flatguards, which themselves were variations of earlier knives.
Yes I've always hated the word transitional. Knives seem to make a noticeable change every 5-10 years so they are always transitioning.

The standard 50's picklock always seemed to be the most transitional stiletto of them all. Flatguards ran a good 50 years and swivel bolsters have been going strong another 60.
portlandmike
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by portlandmike »

The term has come to mean a certain transitional time ... like antebellum just means after the war .. but it's come to mean generally after the civil war .. not just any war
Quaero
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by Quaero »

It's good to have intelligent and even spirited discussions about all things, provided they stay open-minded and civil as this has.

When we wrote "Switchblades of Italy" (nearly twenty years ago surprisingly) the three of us were already long time collectors and off the wall enthusiasts of spring-fired knives. That in itself certainly didn't make us absolute authorities on the subject, but our combined knowledge and long discussions did give us some advantages as historians of the hobby. As I mentioned previously, we talked about about all things related to switchblade knives, and particularly Italian models with regard to the S.O.I. book. Did we get everything right? No, but no book ever does.

Enclosed is a snippet from the the glossary of S.O.I. which gives our definitions of the transitional terms. As shown, we tried not to pigeon hole the traditional word into just one meaning. The swivel-bolster is first mentioned, but it is not the sole definition. You can see that blades and other mechanisms were included within the definition, along with the words "a time of change".

I also agree with everyone here that the word "transitional" is quite vague and is certainly open to cover a vast range of models.
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rithvich
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by rithvich »

Quaero, I thought the knives you were posting were a little too nice for you to be a noob :lol: :D :lol:
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Panzerfaust
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Re: Stag Transitional from Maniago

Post by Panzerfaust »

I understood transitional to mean knives made from the late 1950s to early 1960s with any of these characteristics: Swedge blades, one-piece kick/back springs, swivel bolsters or newer button assemblies. However, I don't care for the term for the reasons stated above in that there is disagreement about what it means. At least bayonet blade, so called because it resembles the post-World War II GI bayonet, everyone knows what you mean.
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