Cutler, Builder, Mangler, Designer, Historian, Collector

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ILikeStilettos
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Cutler, Builder, Mangler, Designer, Historian, Collector

Post by ILikeStilettos »

It feels extreme to editorialize about a topic before presenting the actual topic, but then again, it seems wrong not to. I am about to discuss some of the roles and approaches used by veteran knife guys and very inexperience knife guys. My plan is to use anecdotes and impressions to describe the philosophies and practices of some of the members here. I will attempt to do this with as much positive and complimentary information as I can and it is absolutely not my intention to create conflict or offense. I don’t think I am breaking any rules. However, these artists, in many cases, have extreme artistic temperament and feel obligated to take offense on principle or disparage whatever I say because of their personal dislike/disrespect for me. I am pretty confident that I will get some of this wrong, because they are, after all, my own impressions and my qualifications can easily be challenged. I further suspect that some of these gentlemen have me listed as a “foe” and won’t become aware of the article until someone else informs them of its existence. Some folks may object to the particular classification I assign to them, these are discussion points, not insults to start arguments.

I have been a mechanical engineer for 46 years, and while that wasn’t in the knife industry, I have created and specified many mechanical devices over the years. I am of German and Jewish descent, which makes me more volatile and anal than others. I don’t really have a filter, but speak the truth to the best of my ability and knowledge. I try not to offend, but it’s sometimes inevitable. Often the tone of the response to me, impacts the tone of my answers to those responses.

I am aware that some people delight in my writing, even if it is long and windy. During my years in industry I had many managers who detested my writing style and commented that they wanted only the highlights and nothing should be over a page in length. These people who flew at 10,000 feet often were driven by emotion and little interest in facts; they wanted agreement and a plan that supported their strategy immediately. I always believed that sound planning could only be based in an accurate and complete assessment of the current situation and likelihood of success of a particular strategy. I was paid to evaluate and make it happen, but they only wanted my unconditional support. “How fast? How cheap? I want progress reports.” Needless to say, I never advanced to manager, though most of the people I trained did.

**

My very outdated Webster defines “cutler” as a person who makes, sells or repairs knives and other cutting tools. That covers a lot of territory. It seems to have a more specific meaning here among members of this forum, and other accepted terms like “mangler”, “coining”, “picklock”, even “tang” are defined differently or missing entirely from the dictionary.

We seem to hold the term “cutler” in a place of honor. It’s a person who has been in the trenches and achieved some renown by doing and having done everything that there is to do concerning automatic knives. It’s a sort of final progression to the highest level of expertise. Bill, Pat, George, Renzo Pascotto, Dick (Smallfoot), Kaleb, Paul (Panak) and Joel (Benthos) come rapidly to my mind. By the classic definition, I’m a cutler, because I have bought and sold a few knives. However, I concede that I am most definitely not a cutler.

There is a level right below this, a builder. These are guys who have done everything there is to do to create a complete knife from scratch, but they aren’t yet masters. Some progress from entry on the field to creating bunches of knives in short order – Jeremy comes to mind. One day he will likely progress to the cutler level, but it’s a matter of communal respect achieved over a period of time.

Next down is the mangler. Novices frequently assume this is a derogatory term. In our world, it’s a guy who starts with an existing knife or kit and modifies, changes or otherwise upgrades it. The late Killbucket was one. Tank, Ron (Straydog), Duke, Chad and many others fall into this grouping. This is a category that is an end goal for many folks; they never want to progress to builder. Others progress rapidly. I have been told by at least one cutler/builder that he didn’t wish to repair or mangle, because it would be like “going back to kindergarten”. Some are excellent builders, but mostly work on conversions or upgrades – so they are thus primarily manglers.

Anyone who doesn’t fit into the previous category is probably a collector. Basically it’s a guy who understands and appreciates knives, so he amasses a group of them, which he enjoys. The historian has a similar interest, but he’s big on documentation so he collects old catalogs, patent information, etc. – like Charlie.

Finally there is a guy like me, who wants to create new combinations and perhaps entirely new approaches. So I design them in CAD, and share them with whoever is interested and wishes to pursue. I don’t ever plan to do anything physically beyond lubrication and polishing, but that’s just me. Jerryk25 impresses the hell out of me; he is a fine, fine engineer. I am trying to help another guy who is just getting started, but he has a tremendous amount to learn. My friend Ethan is a consummate artist and designer, but he designs for himself and himself alone. His knives are his children, and he has little desire to share or market them.

The important thing to note here; is that any given person at any given time can be in one or all of the categories. Everyone who proceeds down any of these paths will be pretty terrible at it until he gains experience and makes an entire history of errors. I cannot think of a person who does a more exquisite job of fitting and finishing an Italian style knife than Pat. I would not have commissioned two of his knives if this were not the case. However, what Pat makes look routine and perfect is the result of years of practice and his share of mistakes along the way. You don’t become a Pat Havlin overnight. I have a few knives from guys who started but only produced a few knives, and terrible ones at that. This is true in any pursuit of life.

Most folks do not set out to make their living with knives. Even if they plan to remain involved, as I do, they didn’t start in the cutlery industry. Bill was/is a jeweler, gunsmith, engraver and guitar player. George was a cop who taught himself machining. It doesn’t matter where the experience is acquired. Some will likely discount my audacity in claiming to be a designer, that’s their problem. I think I am, and while I am new at, I do know a thing or two (because I have seen a thing or two ... 8-) )

This brings me to the next important consideration. You might call it philosophy and you might call it personality. I have only half-jokingly said that we are all crazy. In truth, most of us are pretty passionate and somewhat self-delusional about what we do. While we may beg for constructive criticism, we don’t always accept it calmly. In Engineering we refer to this as “calling my baby ugly.” It simply means that whatever role you play, right or wrong, with professionalism or not, with effectiveness or not – it’s always our baby, and we respond like mother’s who will defend their baby against all attacks.

Once a mangler has done a couple of dozen knives, and depending on his background, he typically wants to make a knife from scratch. Jeremy, being a machinist by trade, has progressed to this level in a matter of months. Others don’t want to move on, because they like what they are doing, and/or it provides sufficient income just at the level they are. Many folks do superb work, but have no desire to sell knives. Even after guys become Master Cutlers, they do what they want and what engages them. Bill is a man of many pursuits, but he doesn’t get far away from Leverlettos, so there is no use in asking him to make you a 13” dagger stiletto with square button release. That’s not his chosen area. Pat will accommodate that request, but according to his schedule and don’t ask him to filework it – he feels the filework is a cover-up for sloppy fitting. George won’t add safeties or sharpen his blades; they’re only for display. I do not make these comments as criticisms; I’m just trying to explain that certain requests will never fly. You have to know the peccadilloes of the guy you are asking to do work for you.

I have been doing a lot of designs lately. To me, it’s important to not only come up with a certain look, but develop all the necessary internals to insure that it can and will function. Lately I find that it’s not enough to design something that works on paper, you have to consider what the builder is required to do to make it happen. To explain more succinctly, most blades do not rotate 180° from closed and locked to open and locked. Generally it’s a bit less, like 177-178°. A button open, button closed mechanism requires a sear hole in two positions, one for the open, one for the closed. Setting two notches 177.4° apart requires very precise machining. Moreover a ±1° error over a 6” long blade translates to ±1/16” at the point. This means the blade may peek, or not be able to close in one mode, and produces a “banana” in the other. You have to compensate in the design.

Many would-be designers don’t consider simple geometry. If your knife has a back spring and a kick spring, there must be space between the blade and the spine of the knife for these two items to fit. If you drop the pivot hole 1/16” below the centerline of the handle, you create a 1/8” space. Obviously pivot hole placement is critical.

There are all sorts of interesting release and locking mechanisms, but each has its own constraints. I really like coil fired BOBC mechanisms, but it takes some very detailed shaping of the liners and/or scales to create the well for the coil spring and a plunge type button only fractions of an inch away. My novice friend wants a gear driven mechanism. The size of gears he is talking about would require the services of a watchmaker.

I think in terms of mechanical drawings and conversions from fractional to decimal to metric in my head. Many folks can’t do this. They frequently suggest a 3/8” thick blade when they mean 3/16”. I can recite a line from the Randall catalog 3 or 4 decades ago, “Very few original Bowies were produced this thick and the knife is too thick to produce a sharp cutting edge.” The thicker the blade is, the heavier the blade and the less likelihood of producing a sharp edge. Heavy blades have great mass, and therefore move from closed to open more slowly. I often find that people I talk knives with want a thick blade, but can’t quantify how thick and have no concept how grind style affects sharpness. Even when I am satisfied with a design, the builder may only be confused by the drawings. I always show one of my collector friends only the outside view of the knife. If I give him all the details, he becomes overwhelmed.

If you are dealing with a couple of guys, like a water-jet cutter and a machinist/builder, you have to tailor the conversation to their mode of speaking. A 65 thousands slot for the water jet guy is a 1/16” slot for my machinist and I lose him if I say it’s about 50% thicker than a 1 mm Italian liner.

So, these are the things that are rattling around in my head. Comment or criticize as you like, I’ll try to keep my temper in check … oh wait, I’m on your foes list and you aren’t reading this anyway! Keep those pictures and articles coming. I love what you say and post.
Dave Sause
oldandfat@cox.net
(405) 694-3690

"And you're telling me this because, somehow, I look like I give a shit?"

"Let a smile be your umbrella and you're gonna get your dumb ass wet."
gravknife
Posts: 1491
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:34 pm

Re: Cutler, Builder, Mangler, Designer, Historian, Collector

Post by gravknife »

Dave
I've never seen these terms broken down like that ,and its good for me to see .
I have had many non switches with cutlers to their majesties stamped in the blade,and there are a few old cutlers still working in Sheffield about 80 miles from where I live.

I'm uncomfortable at messing with my blades so will remain a collector or maybe a" dabbler" ,someone who has no choice but to fix their knives as no manglers live in his country.

I can see your precision when dealing with the build of these knives and I'm glad you do as I used to think you could just draw a knife ,any blade thickness would do,and just get one made,
and the builder of said knife would accommodate to your needs but there's just so much to it past the want as many problems can arise with these,not like fixed blades I've ground years ago ,more like pocket watches of old that you open and think shxx ,where do I start. :)

Wether long winded or not your posts are informative and I just love the knives you post ,there visually and mechanically stunning.Only a designer and builder together could get such a complex mechanism to work so well and look so good.
So keep em coming.

These knives are like cars in a way ,with the engine that gets them going ,then the paint job and chrome to make them killer for the eyes..

Thanks once again my freind for the enlightenment and explaining what actually goes into the build and design of these so we can get our kicks firing them and talking about what we have found.

I would have answered earlier but a good post this long takes time to read and I'm in a constant battle for the iPad with my wife and daughter. :)

All the best my freind
Ian
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