Forever Diamond Titanium knives

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kwackster
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 8:07 pm

Forever Diamond Titanium knives

Postby kwackster » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:45 pm

In the past i did 2 reviews on different Forever kitchen knives, 1 x ceramic, and 1 x titanium hybrid, both for myself and forum members to enjoy on various international knife forums.
A few weeks ago i decided to send the links to those reviews to Forever head quarters in Japan to see if i would get a reaction or not.
To my surprise i was contacted a few days later by a friendly Englishman, who told me that they had read my reviews with interest and we got to talk a bit about their products.

Well, to make a long story even longer he offered to send me several Forever knives as samples and told me that i could use any of them how i'd think best, and that he hoped this would be somehow beneficial for them as a company (Forever is still a virtual unknown in the Netherlands and no shops carry their knives.)

Just before my hodliday i received the package, and in it were several Diamond Titanium knives (as well as some ceramic cutlery items, but this thread is solely about the Diamond Titanium models)

These pics i've taken from the internet:

ImageImageImage

kwackster
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Forever Diamond Titanium knives

Postby kwackster » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:49 pm

These are the Diamond Titanium knives i received, minus one Chef knife which i already sent through to one of the admins of British knife forum Edgematters.uk, to use as he thinks best.
Soon one of the remaining new models is going to be used for a while by a professional sous-Chef in a busy restaurant kitchen, and his report will be written down later on in this thread.

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One santoku is already in use in our own kitchen & i use it for sharpening practice.
The text on the blade is already fading due to handling, but to me that doesn't matter.

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The still new & unused Santoku model:

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Specs:

Overall length: 32,1 cm (12.64 inch)
Blade length: 18,7 cm (7.36 inch)
Blade thickness: 1,51 mm
Blade material: titanium alloy (48 HRC) with diamond particles, ceramic particles, and silver.
Handle material: Plastic
Weight: 84 grams

The still new & unused Chef knife:

Image

Specs:

Overall length: 35,0 cm (13.78 inch)
Blade length: 21,5 cm (8.46 inch)
Blade thickness: 1,78 mm
Blade material: titanium alloy (48 HRC) with diamond particles, ceramic particles, and silver.
Handle material: Plastic
Weight: 94 grams

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natcherly
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Re: Forever Diamond Titanium knives

Postby natcherly » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:19 pm

Very perceptive to send that material to the manufacturer who responded by providing more knives for evaluation. Aside from "sharpening practice", the need for which is unclear, how do these knives perform in the kitchen?

kwackster
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Forever Diamond Titanium knives

Postby kwackster » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:07 pm

Thank you :-)
The performance in our home kitchen so far is quite positive i would say, and things that stand out for me are the ultra low weight and the aggressiveness of the factory cutting edge, even though that edge is only copy paper slicing sharp.
Since one of these knives is going to be tested for some time by a real Chef who is used to truly sharp steel knives (which i sharpen for him) i want to find out if i can improve upon the factory sharpness of this material.

kwackster
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Forever Diamond Titanium knives

Postby kwackster » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:56 pm

The factory edge on the knife was only copy paper slicing sharp, and when i looked at the apex through my Victorinox loupe i could see that it was more or less micro-serrated over it's entire length (due to it being rather coarsely sharpened at the factory)
Trying to improve upon the sharpness (in my case with Paper Wheels coated with various diamond compounds) turned out to be possible, and after 15, 6, and 3 micron those micro-serrations disappeared and the apex became clean and fine enough to shave the hair from the back of my hand at an inclusive edge angle of between 25 and 30 degrees.
Even though motorized the process was very time consuming, and with each finer diamond compound things slowed down even more.

All the work turned out pretty useless in the end: after using the knife just one time on a good wooden cutting board to cut up all the ingredients for a big pasta salad (various onions, bell peppers, garlic & broccoli) the apex sustained damage in some places (seen through the loupe), and i think i saw both microchipping & rolling (not sure)
My guess is that just like it's Cera-Titan counterpart the Dia-Titan alloy & high sharpness polished edges don't go together well, and it probably does better and longer with a less refined edge.
Removing the damage and resharpening to factory sharpness however was quite easily done with a DMT Diafold Fine/Red, and afterwards i did a little cardboard cutting test.

With the new & less refined edge the knife sliced a measured 100 meters or 328 feet of double walled cardboard plus 70 meters or 229 feet of single walled cardboard without tearing, and at that point i ran out of cardboard.
Afterwards when seen through my loupe the edge showed no damage other than a very narrow line of light over it's entire length, and i'm convinced it could have sliced a whole lot more cardboard.
The edge is also still sharp enough to slice copypaper.

ImageImageImage

I will now resharpen the edge with just the DMT Diafold Fine/Red and continue to use it in our kitchen.

kwackster
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Forever Diamond Titanium knives

Postby kwackster » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:55 am

Besides being 100 % rust proof and the edges having a very high wear resistance the blade material also has active anti-bacterial properties due to silver particles in the alloys of both the Diamond Titanium & the Cera Titanium line.

Japan Food Research Laboratories http://www.jfrl.or.jp/e/ did a test where E-Coli bacteria were put on different blade materials, and then microscopic pictures were taken at various time intervals to see what happened.
I found the pic below on a German website.
The first row shows a Forever titanium blade, and the second row shows a stainless steel one.

Image

kwackster
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Forever Diamond Titanium knives

Postby kwackster » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:43 am

At this point in time and after just a short period of testing i would say that the edge is quite durable.
Not so much in keeping a super high sharpness , think hairwhittling / treetopping / arm hair shaving (although i plan to experiment further with various other sharpening methods), but the material surely seems to be able to hold a good useable edge for actual kitchen use.
Although titanium at 48 HRC isn't very hard itself, in these blades it acts as the matrix to hold the diamond & ceramic particles, which are responsible for the very high wear resistance, and i think that together with the other alloying ingredients this provides for enough firmness for the edge apex so that it doesn't fold over or chips easily in actual use.
So far i haven't seen it anyway.

Now at the moment i'm experimenting with regrinding the blade as the factory grind was a bit too thick for my taste, plus i wanted to see if it was at all possible.
The factory edge measured somewhere between 25 and 30 degrees inclusive, with a thickness behind the edge of 0,54 mm.
Now the blade is a very shallow convex with something that resembles a zero edge, and the new apex fits in the 20 degrees inclusive slot of my Tormek WM 200 Angle Master.
Besides the fact that the knife now cuts in an entire different league the edge so far seems to hold up in both my kitchen use as well as in cutting quite a bit of cardboard without it folding over or chipping.

kwackster
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 8:07 pm

Re: Forever Diamond Titanium knives

Postby kwackster » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:04 am

Today sous-Chef Patrick sent me his impressions on the factory fresh Diamond Titanium santoku knife that i lent him to use, the still new & unused Santoku model:

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Below is what he wrote me (translated from Dutch):

"You asked me to write down my experiences with the new Diamond Titanium Santoku knife.
Well, i used the knife exclusively for 15-20 hours mostly on vegetables, and here is a list:

5 kilogram of tomatoes
1.5 kilogram of string beans
5 kilogram of white onions
1.5 kilogram of legumes (very thin)
8 large cabbages
15 kilogram of paprika's
5 kilogram of Bouquet garni (carrot, onion, leek, celeriac)
plus about 2 kilograms of other vegetables

Further for

portioning meat
cleaning fish
removing ends of various vegetables
etc.

Plus:

The knife is thin, so there is less resistance to cut through something.
After cutting all of the above i notice little to no loss of sharpness.
Lightweight, which is quite pleasant if you have to use the knife multiple hours straight during the day.
Completely rust proof.

Minus:

The knife is not sharp enough for some jobs, like cutting up chive.
The knife is absolutely unsuitable for pushcuts (i found out that unconciously i do a lot of pushcutting)
On harder vegetables i need to exert more pressure due to which i get the impression that the knife starts to wander".


Patrick already returned the knife to me, and in exchange i lent him the other santoku that i reground to a shallow convex with an edge angle of 20 degrees inclusive and an apex finished with a DMT Diafold Fine/Red coated with some WD40.

His first impressions with the reground version:

" I've already used the reground knife intensively for 2 days straight, and for about the same jobs as i described earlier, which will make good comparison later.
I notice that this knife cuts a lot better, it's also possible to pushcut with, it wanders much less, and it seems sharper (or really is sharper)"


More to follow later,


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