Damascus Steel ????

Treeshark · Post by **Treeshark** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:50 am

if you look at this link
http://www.skm.to/bin/skm.cgi/pager/p/i ... -661967293

this is what I am asking about. I am trying to find out what type of "Damascus steel" this is.
My friend has one of these and I have two.
I think that it is Swedish steel [probably powdered metal]. My friend thinks it is just a laser-etched pattern on a piece of stainless steel.
Have sent email asking but does anyone know ??

treeshark

Vagrant · Post by **Vagrant** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:21 am

It is a powdered matal technology that MAY be similar to the original Damascus [which was first called Wootz steel] from India. Original Wootz had the "Damascus" look but was NOT forge welded in many layers like Damascus today. It is this Wootz steel that was responsable for many of the "Damascus" legends. The "Pattern welded" Damascus made today was an attempt to reproduce the look of Wootz steel by a different method. [This could get VERY involved since even "pattern welded" Damascus MUST be acid etched to bring out the pattern]. The SKM Damascus is powdered metal it is NOT just regular steel acid etched to "look" like Damascus

Entire books could be written on this subject without reaching much agreement. Try http://www.bladegallery.com/information ... mascus.asp
for more info and/or do a search on Al Pendray.
The SKM Damascus may be an ideal compromise between Wootz and Pattern Welded. It is two types of steel [like pattern welded] it is NOT forge welded [similar to Wootz its cast into ingots or "blooms"].

Treeshark · Post by **Treeshark** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:02 pm

I received an answer from SKm Customer Support. here it is

Hello Treeshark,

Damascus: Damascus steel is formed with hundreds of layers of iron and
steel that are forged together to produce a high carbon blade with
distinctively individual patterns. The art of Damascus steel making goes
back thousands of years, and no one is certain of it's origin.

Best regards, XXXXXXXX

Gee, I guess the guys at SKM think that treeshark can not swim and chew gum at the same time.

THANK YOU Vagrant fot your answer. I did not realise that acid was so important.. My favorite link about Damascus is this one
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/98 ... -9809.html

But with the help from Vagrant, I now have new areas to research. thanks again Vagrant.

maybe I should give SKM one more try at this.

treeshark

Post by **tr4252** » Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:55 pm

When I think of Damascus, I remember the patterns I'd see in old shotgun barrels. I think they were made by forging steel & iron together, and the type was called "skelp" if memory serves. It was done to make a stronger barrel I think, and the patterns were usually tiny swirls of a pretty uniform nature. Nice looking. Same thing?
TR

Treeshark · Post by **Treeshark** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:41 am

I am afraid that I do not know anything about Damascus shotgun barrels. I have never even see one, but if they are anything like an AB knife blade then I am sure that they are very nice indeed.
http://www.bladeplay.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=420
that is the link to the discussion we were having about the AB "Damascus" blades at the Play Blade Forum. I believe almost all of the members there are also members here. We just tend to be less formal over there.

treeshark

Vagrant · Post by **Vagrant** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 9:52 am

Damascus Shotgun barrels were made for economy puposes, cheaper than trying to "draw" or bore a cylinder. They were strong enough for Black Powder but modern smokeless can turn them into a Claymore mine

The appearence is similar to Damascus blades but they never had the same reputation for being superior. I'm curious about SKMs description

I was led to believe they used a Swedish Damascus made by powdered metal techniques

I know one Italian maker calls his blades "Damasco", perhaps that is the powdered metal one and the SKM ones are made the more traditional way

I have to admit I don't know the whole story

Post by **arthas** » Thu Mar 18, 2004 1:28 pm

Hi Treeshark!

Treeshark wrote: Gee, I guess the guys at SKM think that treeshark can not swim and chew gum at the same time.

SKM support did not mean to be rude with you.

The one you received is a pre-created reply, which they send if somebody ask for information about damacus: usually the ones who ask know nothing about that steel, so the reply is somehow satisfactory.

However, I'll make sure SKM support prepares a better one when possible.

M.

Treeshark · Post by **Treeshark** » Fri Mar 19, 2004 3:25 am

Thanks Arthas. I did not know that I was going to get a pre-created reply. If that answer works for most people then it is a good answer. The following might be a better pre-created reply.

Making Damascus knives is a very old art form that has more than one origin and can be traced back to nearly the age of steel itself. The India made blades, first seen in Damascus Syria, gave us the name. But it was the many layered Japanese swords and of course those Viking daggers with the composite blades with the chevron twists etc that gave us the method most used today to make Damascus knives.The art very nearly became lost to obscurity, but due to the recent interest in knife making these past short 30 years, it has come a very long way since those early days. It's been a real modern day renaissance if you will.

But I still have not received an answer to my question.

What type of Damascus steel is SKM using with its Damascus blades ??

Hint, hint the answer should be either

one-pattern-welded steel, or modern Damascus

two-wootz (or Oriental) Damascus

treeshark

Treeshark · Post by **Treeshark** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:03 am

well, well, well... as I was surfing around I found this site

http://www.italianswitchblades.com/Styles/Blades.htm

but then I saw this

http://bladeauction.com/cgi-bin/osa/Vie ... ber=734748

Poor, old dumb treeshark scratches his head with his fin and wonders about all of this. perhaps treeshark should swim south and discuss all of this with a female Treesharkus like this

http://www.latinlove.net/Joham001.jpg

treeshark

Vagrant · Post by **Vagrant** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:43 am

Must be spawning time

Treeshark · Post by **Treeshark** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:12 pm

after seeing the two links Picker posted this reply. had me laughing at least

Now that's what I call international cooperation... and it doesn't look bad either. But is Swedish Damascus really Damascus? Do the Italian knifemakers really shoot the bull to provide Bovine horn? Will Tree ever get to South America? Can Shari protect her fiestaware?

Tune in tomorrow for the answers to these and other burning questions, on your favorite show... "Days of Our Knives"....
_________________
"Knife lovers are sharp people - they always get the point."

treeshark

PS memebrs of Treesharkus do not spawn, we mate
http://www.latinlove.net/marlin003.jpg

Treeshark · Post by **Treeshark** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:43 pm

I just love auctions,
http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewIt ... m=17019195

This is the type of "Damascus" AB blade that I am talking about. Mine even came in that same box. If you do not want to go to the link, here is what it says. But you know as I read this without the music in the backgroud, something does not seem quite right. Treeshark scratches his head with his fin and deciides to think this over

WHAT IS AUTHENTIC
FULLY FORGED - DAMASCUS STEEL?

Forged knives use more metal and require a great deal more work by skilled craftsmen than stamped knives. Forged Damascus require even more metal and much more work and craftsmanship.

Forged knives are formed by smashing a hot piece of steel in a knife mold. This allows for a thick bolster between the knife handle and the blade. The excess metal is trimmed off, and the knife is then machined to have a smooth bolster and a taper ground blade. The bolster and handle have to carefully shaped so they fit precisely with no gaps.

The patterns on patterned welded Damascus are the result of twisting, stock removal, or hammering a laminate of different steels. To produce the laminate, various layers of steel are forged, cut or folded, stacked, and reforged. This process is repeated until a laminate of the desired number of layers is produced. The Japanese have used this process to make laminates of more than one million layers.

The basic steps in producing a pattern-welded blade are as follows:

Begin with several layers of two different alloys

Stack the layers, alternating the alloys

Weld the layers into one bar

Hammer to lengthen the bar and fold

Reweld the bar

Repeat the previous two steps until a bar with the desired number of layers is achieved.

Create desired pattern by stock removal, punching, or twisting the laminate.

The pattern produced depends on the manipulation of the laminate. Stock removal can produce a wavy pattern by causing distortions where steel has been removed. Punching covers the surface with indentations of specific designs that are revealed upon polishing and etching. Twisting the laminate creates a patterned bar which can be ground, filed or reforged.

**********
WARNING NOTICE: There are now some very inexpensive knives being made whose blades "appear" to be Damascus, but actually the Damascus design is merely etched on, and when sharpened, you will quickly see they are merely stainless steel with a pretty pattern. True Damascus, is a difficult, expensive process, not found in low end knives.

Vagrant · Post by **Vagrant** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:38 pm

I believe it is Swedish powdered metal technology. The blade blank could be forged after the bar stock is cast. None of my Italian Damascus knives rust as quickly as traditional carbon steel Damascus, and I know the Swedes make their powdered metal Damascus from 2 types of stainless.

Treeshark · Post by **Treeshark** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 5:10 pm

Vagrant wrote:I believe it is Swedish powdered metal technology. The blade blank could be forged after the bar stock is cast. None of my Italian Damascus knives rust as quickly as traditional carbon steel Damascus, and I know the Swedes make their powdered metal Damascus from 2 types of stainless.

When I read this, I decided that I agreed with you 110% Vagrant.
Personally I believe Swedish powdered metal technology to be a type of Wootz steel. That should get half of the Damascus lovers mad at me

And from what you say I am starting to think that Swedish powdered metal technology may even be the BEST type of Wootz steel. That should get the other half of Damascus lovers mad at me.

But I really like my AB Damascus blades

That are really very beautiful and cool

HOWEVER I just read this from a dealer who has always described his knives perfectly and I have complete trust in what he says. and yes there is a hint of it on the grind of my two knives.

I just got in a few Damascus knives from AKC (leverletos and a few lever locks) and they have the real deal for sure. You can see it all the way around the knife (the folded metal) and there's a hint of it even on the grind (although I think when you girnd a blade it had the effect of polishing it to a degree and the pattern may not show up at all). Anyway- really cool stuff.

Poor, old dumb Treeshark scratches his head with his fin as he continues to ponder this great mystery of vida. Maybe I can get the answers to this and other burning questions, on my favorite show... "Days of Our Knives"....

Vagrant · Post by **Vagrant** » Fri Mar 26, 2004 6:29 pm

Wootz? Al Pendray has probably got it nailed, if the powdered metal is close it's a happy accident

The powdered metal is VERY hard [impossible?] to tell from traditional "pattern welded" Damascus

The prices of the Italian knives indicate powdered metal. The only source of pattern welded damascus I know of the are economical enough to use on mass produced knives are India. [This is not bad, India made some very advanced steel when western Europeans were still using flint and worshipping bundles of sticks

]