9" ID please

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KrisNZ
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:49 am

9" ID please

Post by KrisNZ »

Here's another for your consideration, all I know about this piece is that an "early 60's Transitional" whatever that means
I'm sure someone here can help with any verification,
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Thanks Kris,
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jerryk25
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Location: Pittsburgh

Re: 9" ID please

Post by jerryk25 »

I'm not sure if I would call this "Transitional". . . But . . .it may be. . .
it is not "Early Transitional" . . . but it may be later transitional. . .

It is Newer than the other knife.
Look at this chart.
Your knife has liner plate 7 with ears (guards) . . not seen on modern knives.
Your knife either has liners 6 and 7 . . . . . .or 7 and 8.
and is Missing part 5. the liner plate behind the tilt bolster.
The tilt bolster looks silver underneath the ear, with a cavity shadow.
I do not think it has a tiny plate soldered to the tilt bolster.
Fabricators realized this was an extra step, costing money, especially on 9 inch knives.
The bolster may be Nickel . . . but lots of manual knives much later than Transitionals had Nickel bolsters.

The button on a 9 inch is fairly centered on the scale.
So a modern button mechanism may be under the scale, and I couldn't tell . .
unless i'd pry up the spring and look into the blade well cavity
at the underside of the front scale liner, under the button.

I think it's a one piece spring. because I don't see a division line of metals abutting. .
Which is a modern spring.
So if it has a modern one piece spring, and liner plate number 8 for a modern button. .
I would be inclined to call it a modern. . .or post-transitional . . .knife.

Right now everything hinges on if you find it has liner plate 6 . . D-Stamped.
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KrisNZ
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:49 am

Re: 9" ID please

Post by KrisNZ »

Thanks man, much appreciation. Boy there's a lot to learn in the world of Italian switchblades, very interesting

Kris
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jerryk25
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Re: 9" ID please

Post by jerryk25 »

detail
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KrisNZ
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Re: 9" ID please

Post by KrisNZ »

Hmmmm, interesting. I did notice that, so previously the were shaped from a solid billet?
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jerryk25
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Re: 9" ID please

Post by jerryk25 »

No. look at the red chart . .
The term billet, implies something else.
All of this is made from Plate Metal or Sheet Metal, depending on colloquial language.
Example, 1/2inch x 1/2inch x 12 inches is "Keystock" to a guy making 30 inch diameter gears
but the same metal 1/2 x 1/2 x 12 is called Bar Stock, or Bar. . . when a guy is making knives.
but 1/2 x 2inches x 12 inches is Plate to a guy welding ship hulls with patches.
but 1/2 x 48 inches x 120 inches is sheet. . .everything is 1/2 inch rolled stock. . . .
All of these raw material pieces are cut to size.

A billet is a piece of metal not in it's final saleable form
Billets are drawn into tubing, rolled into bar and then sheet.

It gets confusing because people who make folded metal damascus (pattern weld)
use the term billet . . . and they make blades that look like bars.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _



approximate history of bolsters. . . and remember there are always exceptions.

First bolsters were 2 piece. . .a strap over a slug*** . . .Nickel or Brass (edited*** here to remove word "billet")
This is why there is a "Step" in the bolster.
The billet was the actual bolster where the pivot pin was drilled.
The strap made the ears, so the ears were very flat.. . .Hence the name "Flat Guard or Flatguard".
Depending on the maker, anywhere between 1920 and 1945 . . .

After WWII . . .
The bolsters were 1 piece, shaped like there was still a strap.
The mold was intentionally designed to mimic the strap step of a Flat Guard.
This is die struck , between two hardened hocky pucks of steel with the cavity shape.
Sometimes it was trimmed and shape all with one die, sometimes two.

Early die struck bolster were thick nickel, and the ears seemed very flat, and there was no
inside the ears . . . this does not make it a "flat guard".
Makers realized an early "Uni-body" theory, like folding a paper makes it stiffer at the crease.
So makers could use thinner nickel plate . . . This made more of a cavity under the ears. . .
It is hard to make a rule about this. . .Bigger knives needed thicker materials.
so there was a gradual change in the die stamped hollow bolsters. . .

When the tilt bolsters came about. .there were piles of parts to be used up.
And shops were still producing manual folders, so the hollow manual or picklock bolster was still made.
Early Transitionals were more hand cobbled up. . . cutting down square cut manual bolsters.
and they were soldered to a dedicated smaller liner plate. Because of the thin nickel bolster laying about.
Too thin of a bolster material will cut your thumb when you press on it.
I have a 7 inch picklock with nickel so thin, it almost shear failed at the "Fake Step" shape. . .

Eventually as parts were used up. . someone compared time to solder a liner, vs cost of thicker nickel.
and you see some tilt bolsters in nickel revert back to thicker material without the liner on the tilt side bolster.
But the other, reverse side non-tilting bolster might be thinner nickel.

Somewhere in this cycle of modifications, , , ,steel bolsters appeared.
and at first. the rear steel bolster still had full liner plate behind the ears.
But soon. . . both front and back brass liners lost the ears.
and you could see cavities under the steel bolsters.
At this time, manual folders with steel bolsters, and steel liners with full shape under the ears still existed.
Most Steel bolsters are cut and shaped all at once, if you look at a cut edge, it looks like metal cake air pockets.
This is often called a "shear line" area of high stress.
If a steel bolster is cut first, and then shaped in a second press, the flash edge "cake" look. . will disappear.
This is how I made spoons at All-Clad pots and pans.
First you stamp out flat spoons that look like boat oars. .
then you re-stamp them to have a bowl and filigree decorative pattern.

Cast bolsters
Eventually. . .(at first on Edge Company kits) and then Edge Company manual folders with tilt bolsters.
The bolsters stopped being steel, and became a weird Alloy, of which I'm not sure. . possibly zinc.
I have a tilt bolster manual folder with brass bolsters, and the bolsters are bronze plated. . .
I filed off a casting burr / flash . .and exposed silver metal underneath.

Past this. . .I stopped analyzing fabrication details. . . I'll leave that to the next generation.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Disclaimer . . .Die Stamping can go slow or fast, with cold metal. . .
anyone who has a press, can squeeze metal plate into a die/mold.
or even trim plate between two dies.
Sometimes presses are slow, crank it down like a vice, then pump the pressure up to squeeze.
Other times pneumatic lines lift a HUGE weighted hammer, that drops down when the air is released.
and the shape is smashed, fast, allowing many parts to be inserted, in a long production run.
The drop hammer press looks like forging. . but it is not really.

Die casting looks almost the same, but happens faster with hot metal.
Depending on the part, it can be hard to tell what is used.
Die casting is one step away from Forged. . .and usually does not occur in small shops.
(Racing car crankshafts are Die Cast and then twisted while hot., cooled, then machined. then heat treated.)

So when I say . . Die Stamped . . . .it is a generic term that I picked out. . that may not be accurate.
I'm presuming "Die Stamped as opposed to Die Casting, or overt Poured Casting.
because small shops can't afford gas or electric ovens to heat up metal for purposes other than heat treating.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

All of this info comes from being a draftsman, and having to record the thoughts of engineers,
and translate to paper using standard symbols for purchase agents to buy the correct stuff.
I have some 45 years of being corrected. . "you wrote THAT . .what were you thinking. . revise that and re-issue the drawing"

And not because I have knife repair skills. . . I am a lowly mangler . . . corrupting other makers artwork.
*
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jerryk25
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Re: 9" ID please

Post by jerryk25 »

Funn Photos

Jackalope photo of a die, and a sheet of metal formed over the die.

A flatguard showing how it's made with a "Slug and a Strap"

A photo of a cannon trunion, also known as a Capsquare.
The strap, holds down the cannon trunion and keeps it square at 90 degree right angle
to the cannon carriage. . .
The strap on a knife, does not really hold the slug square for the pivot pin,
but using a strap, means you can use less metal to produce guards
as opposed to casting , or machining down a larger block
Especially when you are using semi precious metals like Nickel. (not sure if Nickel is really precious)
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jerryk25
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Re: 9" ID please

Post by jerryk25 »

Finally . . .

Older stilettos had really cool bolsters and crossguards that were almost jewelry.
This photo is from "Sticks-o-Fire", of an ornate flatguard.

You'd think modern fabricators would jump at a chance to make something classy.
But it seems they just want to make coilspring aluminum handles with pocket clip . .

you know. . profit. . gotta feed the wife and kids. . .Labors of Love are now Lost.
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KrisNZ
Posts: 76
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Re: 9" ID please

Post by KrisNZ »

Thanks!
I'm just heading off on Vacation, plenty of inflight reading,

Kris,
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