Real Damascus or etched'
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Real Damascus or etched'
I just bought a swinger with snakewood scales and Damascus blade. Today i read something about Damascus blades and it said they etch the blade to make it look like the real thing. Is my AKC blade etched?
Re: Real Damascus or etched'
I hope 3knives would only sell genuine Damascus. My Damascus knives all have what looks like layers on the spine of the knife’s blade.
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John
Massachusetts Where Everything is Illegal or Taxed
John
Massachusetts Where Everything is Illegal or Taxed
Re: Real Damascus or etched'
It's coming from the Grindworx and made by AKC. I do hope it's the real McCoy'
Last edited by leighdog on Mon May 02, 2022 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Real Damascus or etched'
I posted this before checking spelling on McCoy, Sorry
- Bill DeShivs
- Yes.
- Posts: 7362
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2002 2:50 pm
- Location: In de lan o' cotton
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Re: Real Damascus or etched'
It's real.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
Re: Real Damascus or etched'
It's not ONLY a question of whether it's real. . . it's also how well it's made.
We rarely see real Damascus. . . We usually see Pattern Welded Steel. . . about 99% of the time.
Real Damascus was made in a 1 quart batch, baked in a ceramic bowl with a lid.
it cooked under the lid, in a sort of air-tight environment of a kiln packed with hot coals.
( keeping air out this way was the closest thing to inert gas purge kilns back in the year 1250 A.D. )
At first, it was a happy accident. . .then the middle eastern metalsmiths figured out the science.
You are reducing minerals ores, not metal ( Yet ) into metal by smelting.
When it cooled you got a big red hot hockey puck of unstirred material with top and bottom slag.
with visible quality layer separation. . .knock the slag off. . .
Like loosely scrambled eggs. . . .the steel was then folded a few times and drawn out into a blade.
( "few times" as opposed to japanese folding hundreds of layers more like pattern welding.)
Back in the day, ( the midieval crusades ) Anglo-saxon swords were cast iron poured in open air,
and then hammer drawn out by dipping red hot iron into tree leaves,
and the blacksmith hammered carbon back into the iron. . making a rudimentary Steel.
When they first met Damascus Blades in the middle east, the swords were light weight and flexible.
( there is a legend that a crusader bragged his sword could chop a helmet, and a Saladeen bragged he could cut a pillow )
Now days. . . Neither Real Damascus, Nor hammer drawn iron, Nor Folded Pattern Welded blades,
can ever compare to foundry inert gas reduction spark tested recipe steel hot rolled into shape.
Metallurgists study steel crystal structure by looking thru microscopes and polarized light refraction
for grain structure and size. . . they name the structures "Austensite" and other names.
So. . . nobody makes "Real Damascus" . . . it's all Pattern Welded Steel.
We just call it Damascus. . . just like we call everything "Jello" instead of "Royal Brand Gelatin"
Now days , a blacksmith will stack different metals, he does not start with mineral ore.
He starts with steels, at a refined level already metal. . heats it red hot in a kiln . . . .and hammers it into a solid mass.
There are tricks to keeping the air out while you hammer. . . and flux paste has to be folded out also.
Some people stack bars, some people fill cannister cans with ball bearings and flux powder.
I once sent for a long slim "damascus " blade from India or Pakistan . . (I forget.)
I was turning a dagger blade with a handle tongue into something for an OTF with a blade heel.
When I got it, it was two metals, stainless and non-stainless loosely hammered together.
It was dipped in acid to etch the non-stainless parts, and then washed and waxed.
When I dragged my fingernail over the pattern, it actually stopped dead.
I even "peeled" off a small part on the tip.
I had been filing the point , and I filed a layer off, and the next layer peeled.
The Pattern Weld "Damascus" was not pounded solid and tight.
There was a high probability of internal cavities and potential fracture lines .
The Blade was only good as a "wall hanger" . . .not that it mattered for my project.
I really don't know a lot about Pattern Welding . . . .
But I learned first hand that there is really cheaply hammered up "fake damascus" . . .
We rarely see real Damascus. . . We usually see Pattern Welded Steel. . . about 99% of the time.
Real Damascus was made in a 1 quart batch, baked in a ceramic bowl with a lid.
it cooked under the lid, in a sort of air-tight environment of a kiln packed with hot coals.
( keeping air out this way was the closest thing to inert gas purge kilns back in the year 1250 A.D. )
At first, it was a happy accident. . .then the middle eastern metalsmiths figured out the science.
You are reducing minerals ores, not metal ( Yet ) into metal by smelting.
When it cooled you got a big red hot hockey puck of unstirred material with top and bottom slag.
with visible quality layer separation. . .knock the slag off. . .
Like loosely scrambled eggs. . . .the steel was then folded a few times and drawn out into a blade.
( "few times" as opposed to japanese folding hundreds of layers more like pattern welding.)
Back in the day, ( the midieval crusades ) Anglo-saxon swords were cast iron poured in open air,
and then hammer drawn out by dipping red hot iron into tree leaves,
and the blacksmith hammered carbon back into the iron. . making a rudimentary Steel.
When they first met Damascus Blades in the middle east, the swords were light weight and flexible.
( there is a legend that a crusader bragged his sword could chop a helmet, and a Saladeen bragged he could cut a pillow )
Now days. . . Neither Real Damascus, Nor hammer drawn iron, Nor Folded Pattern Welded blades,
can ever compare to foundry inert gas reduction spark tested recipe steel hot rolled into shape.
Metallurgists study steel crystal structure by looking thru microscopes and polarized light refraction
for grain structure and size. . . they name the structures "Austensite" and other names.
So. . . nobody makes "Real Damascus" . . . it's all Pattern Welded Steel.
We just call it Damascus. . . just like we call everything "Jello" instead of "Royal Brand Gelatin"
Now days , a blacksmith will stack different metals, he does not start with mineral ore.
He starts with steels, at a refined level already metal. . heats it red hot in a kiln . . . .and hammers it into a solid mass.
There are tricks to keeping the air out while you hammer. . . and flux paste has to be folded out also.
Some people stack bars, some people fill cannister cans with ball bearings and flux powder.
I once sent for a long slim "damascus " blade from India or Pakistan . . (I forget.)
I was turning a dagger blade with a handle tongue into something for an OTF with a blade heel.
When I got it, it was two metals, stainless and non-stainless loosely hammered together.
It was dipped in acid to etch the non-stainless parts, and then washed and waxed.
When I dragged my fingernail over the pattern, it actually stopped dead.
I even "peeled" off a small part on the tip.
I had been filing the point , and I filed a layer off, and the next layer peeled.
The Pattern Weld "Damascus" was not pounded solid and tight.
There was a high probability of internal cavities and potential fracture lines .
The Blade was only good as a "wall hanger" . . .not that it mattered for my project.
I really don't know a lot about Pattern Welding . . . .
But I learned first hand that there is really cheaply hammered up "fake damascus" . . .
Re: Real Damascus or etched'
The term 'Damascus" gets bandied about a lot these days.
Mostly these days it refers to blades that are pattern welded as Jerry says.
Some of the best pattern welders are from Java and Madura (first picture).
Then we have Wootz or crucible steel.
The late Al Pendray made an enlightening video on the process. (copy and paste in your browser)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4 it's a bit long, but interesting.
I don't believe that a cake of wootz necessarily needs folding as the pattern is already contained in the ingot and is brought out in the finished product with an etchant. Wootz needs to be forged at a low heat; if it gets too hot then the pattern disappears.
I have two examples in my collection; one is a dagger from Bokhara that shows a vivid pattern; the other is a Talwar made from very finely grained wootz. Both were made well over 200 years ago.
Mostly these days it refers to blades that are pattern welded as Jerry says.
Some of the best pattern welders are from Java and Madura (first picture).
Then we have Wootz or crucible steel.
The late Al Pendray made an enlightening video on the process. (copy and paste in your browser)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4 it's a bit long, but interesting.
I don't believe that a cake of wootz necessarily needs folding as the pattern is already contained in the ingot and is brought out in the finished product with an etchant. Wootz needs to be forged at a low heat; if it gets too hot then the pattern disappears.
I have two examples in my collection; one is a dagger from Bokhara that shows a vivid pattern; the other is a Talwar made from very finely grained wootz. Both were made well over 200 years ago.
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Re: Real Damascus or etched'
I wish i had known more before posting anything' I feel real stupid now as i should' The knife i got was a fake in many ways.
- Bill DeShivs
- Yes.
- Posts: 7362
- Joined: Sat May 25, 2002 2:50 pm
- Location: In de lan o' cotton
- Contact:
Re: Real Damascus or etched'
The knife I said was real wasn't yours.
That said, almost all "damascus" steel is acid etched to bring out the pattern. Don't get the etching confused with authenticity.
That said, almost all "damascus" steel is acid etched to bring out the pattern. Don't get the etching confused with authenticity.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
Re: Real Damascus or etched'
good video ! . . .thanks for the link. . . .
Re: Real Damascus or etched'
Yer welcome.