RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

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Bill DeShivs
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by Bill DeShivs »

Square or D-what difference does it make. They have liners punched to hold the button pivot.
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by orangeboy »

Bill DeShivs wrote:Square or D-what difference does it make. They have liners punched to hold the button pivot.
Different construction means different makers...or NOT EXACTLY THE SAME AS STATED...end of discussion.
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Bill DeShivs
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by Bill DeShivs »

No, it doesn't mean different makers. It means different production lines, possibly.
I had an 8" and a 10" at the same time. One had D, the other had square tabs. I can assure you they appeared to be the same manufacturer.
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by orangeboy »

Bill DeShivs wrote:No, it doesn't mean different makers. It means different production lines, possibly.
I had an 8" and a 10" at the same time. One had D, the other had square tabs. I can assure you they appeared to be the same manufacturer.
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JimBrown257
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by JimBrown257 »

Definitely Japanese. Here are several Japanese knives. While they all have unique features, they all have certain traits that are common to only Japanese knives. Most have SS stamps but some have Inox and a few even have Rostfrei. Most autos had D-stamps but some had little square stamps. Some had horn or bone but most had plastic (a really distinct type of plastic that is immediately recognizable by its chemical smell when sanded). But if you took all those knives in the pic, and a bunch of Italian knives and you took them all completely apart and put all the pieces in a bag, I could easily separate all the pieces into two piles. Even the scale pins seem different; the Japanese either used a softer brass or annealed the brass. There are some Japanese knives that are very unique like the Wasp Rizzuto, but they still have those unmistakable Japanese features.

There are a few things I have noticed about Japanese knives. Unlike Italian knives which usually had steel pins on the top NS bolster and brass (sometimes steel) on the bottom, the Japs almost always used NS on NS bolsters and steel on steel bolsters (there are some exceptions like some steel on JPLs and the aluminum pins on some of the mini levers). They also really seemed to want to avoid heat treating whenever they could. While some of the earlier blades and springs were treated, they were done very poorly (a lot of kinked blades). I believe that the reason the lockbacks had the mid lock is that the pieces they used were not strong enough for a full length lock (because the longer the piece is, the stronger it needs to be). So they used a thin piece of music wire to push a short piece of weak steel. I think the closest thing I have seen to well-treated steel on a Japanese knife is the lock spring on the manual swingers.

On that same subject, I believe the reason later Rizzutos had the zinc rocker is that with the music wire spring and sear, they no longer had to treat any of the metal.

I don't know if it was the same company making these knives or if there were multiple companies using similar supplies and techniques. I would be very interested in finding out, though. With all the attention put into the Italian and American knife history, no one has done much research on the knives from other countries.
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orangeboy
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by orangeboy »

JimBrown257 wrote:Definitely Japanese. Here are several Japanese knives. While they all have unique features, they all have certain traits that are common to only Japanese knives. Most have SS stamps but some have Inox and a few even have Rostfrei. Most autos had D-stamps but some had little square stamps. Some had horn or bone but most had plastic (a really distinct type of plastic that is immediately recognizable by its chemical smell when sanded). But if you took all those knives in the pic, and a bunch of Italian knives and you took them all completely apart and put all the pieces in a bag, I could easily separate all the pieces into two piles. Even the scale pins seem different; the Japanese either used a softer brass or annealed the brass. There are some Japanese knives that are very unique like the Wasp Rizzuto, but they still have those unmistakable Japanese features.

There are a few things I have noticed about Japanese knives. Unlike Italian knives which usually had steel pins on the top NS bolster and brass (sometimes steel) on the bottom, the Japs almost always used NS on NS bolsters and steel on steel bolsters (there are some exceptions like some steel on JPLs and the aluminum pins on some of the mini levers). They also really seemed to want to avoid heat treating whenever they could. While some of the earlier blades and springs were treated, they were done very poorly (a lot of kinked blades). I believe that the reason the lockbacks had the mid lock is that the pieces they used were not strong enough for a full length lock (because the longer the piece is, the stronger it needs to be). So they used a thin piece of music wire to push a short piece of weak steel. I think the closest thing I have seen to well-treated steel on a Japanese knife is the lock spring on the manual swingers.

On that same subject, I believe the reason later Rizzutos had the zinc rocker is that with the music wire spring and sear, they no longer had to treat any of the metal.

I don't know if it was the same company making these knives or if there were multiple companies using similar supplies and techniques. I would be very interested in finding out, though. With all the attention put into the Italian and American knife history, no one has done much research on the knives from other countries.
Thanks for your input and opinion JimBrown. And thanks for not telling us “just to believe you” without any proof. It’s nice you acknowledged that they aren’t EXACTLY the same.

I’ll be sending you a bunch of ads and info about the Japanese models that no one else has ever seen before. Hopefully it will help you on your quest for learning more about these. That way you can help the hobby and not flip flop all over the place about imaginary theories with baseless ideas. I even have the man’s name who first imported the Japanese stilettos into the USA in the 1950s. ;)

I hope you will enjoy owning this knife. :)
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by Panzerfaust »

I don't know anything about the first knife, but I can tell the knife without guards in JB's pictures is Japanese because I have a couple of Japanese lever locks, including a "Godzilla Blade," and they have similar scales.
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by JimBrown257 »

Panzerfaust wrote:I don't know anything about the first knife, but I can tell the knife without guards in JB's pictures is Japanese because I have a couple of Japanese lever locks, including a "Godzilla Blade," and they have similar scales.
I call that stuff Japanese Orange Bone. The style of dyed bone only ever turns up on Japanese knives. There are actually some JPLs that have that stuff. I think those are the only JPLs that have anything other than plastic (excluding rescales, of course).
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by orangeboy »

My honest opinion on all the Japanese picklocks and swing guards and minis...I think they were all made in Japan.

I say this because based on my research the Japanese picklock copies of the Italian stilettos began in the late 1950s. The Japanese picklocks started being made before the Italian swing guards were even created. So clearly Japan had begun making copies of Italian stilettos and German leverlocks before the Italian swing guards were ever created, so there would have been no reason to have the “Rizzuto” type swing guards made in any other place than Japan since Japan was already making copies of switchblades.
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by big_slim »

[quote="orangeboy"]My honest opinion on all the Japanese picklocks and swing guards and minis...I think they were all made in Japan.

lol, I agree with you that all the Japanese knives were made in Japan.
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by orangeboy »

big_slim wrote:
orangeboy wrote:My honest opinion on all the Japanese picklocks and swing guards and minis...I think they were all made in Japan.

lol, I agree with you that all the Japanese knives were made in Japan.
Lol!!! I meant to say those that look Italian but appear Japanese are more than certainly made in Japan and not Italian. Hehe.

Even though “Masters” claimed some were made in Italy.
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Re: RARE, 9” horn handled early “Rizzuto”

Post by john »

Very informative thanks to everyone!!!
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