Damascus Leverlock

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Georgedbugge
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Damascus Leverlock

Postby Georgedbugge » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:57 pm

Has anyone purchased one of these beauties? I'm seriously considering getting one!

https://www.bladeplay.com/item--8-Damas ... ct-reviews

A damascus Leverlock for $39.99 is hard to pass up! Any idea where they might be made? One of the reviewrs mentioned Russia or Pakistan. I'm learning towards Pakistan or perhaps India. Sweet filework on the back, too! :D

Thank you,

George

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Bill DeShivs
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Re: Damascus Leverlock

Postby Bill DeShivs » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:12 am

Damascus steel is nothing special. It's almost as cheap as carbon steel now. The knife is probably Pakistani or Indian.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
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Georgedbugge
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Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Damascus Leverlock

Postby Georgedbugge » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:56 pm

Thank you for the info Bill! Usually when I see the word "Damascus" in a knife's description that translates into a $40 - $100 price premium over a regular stainless steel blade! That led me to believe Damascus steel was more expensive, but I'm starting to think it's more a case of "what the market will bear"!

Take care,

George

P.S. Finally purchased a 9" Leverletto last month and I love it! Great design, great balance, A+!

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Bill DeShivs
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Re: Damascus Leverlock

Postby Bill DeShivs » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:29 pm

Thank you.
Cheap damascus steel offers nothing over cheap non-damascus, except looks.
Most of the damascus used in these Pakistani knives is junk.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives.

Georgedbugge
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Re: Damascus Leverlock

Postby Georgedbugge » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:33 am

Thank you Bill!

You may have saved me from a bad case of "buyer's remorse"! :)

Best regards,

George

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ILikeStilettos
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Re: Damascus Leverlock

Postby ILikeStilettos » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:34 pm

Bill DeShivs wrote:Thank you.
Cheap damascus steel offers nothing over cheap non-damascus, except looks.
Most of the damascus used in these Pakistani knives is junk.

Bill, there you go again with these sweeping statements and condemning an entire country or industry.

I"m going to be extremely careful with wording here, because you have a tendency to be imprecise sometimes and very pedantic at others. I'm not trying to start a war, but I am certain that my calling your opinion into question will cause you to respond negatively. Please try to remember that this is an open forum and we all have things to learn and other perspectives to consider.

When you say "cheap" I am responding on the basis of you meaning "inexpensive". I am not criticizing Chad Nichols or any of his ilk for charging $20-50, or more, per inch of Damascus stock. He is at the top of his game and has a name and reputation. Essentially you are correct that there is not much special about Damascus steel, other than looks, and in fact, the Pakistani's do produce a great deal of it. There are both low end and unscrupulous sellers world wide that do some pretty shady stuff, like etching steel to imitate Damascus. There is specialty "Damasteel" which implies a huge percentage increase in the price of the knife, presumably because it's a 'wonder material' and the seller paid a high price for his raw material. For some reason you seem to be comparing low end steels, both Damascus and non-Damascus. That part I understand. Beyond that, I think you are doing Georgedbugge a great disservice by steering him away from Pakistan or Pakistan Damascus and I think you are all wet about your expertise in Damascus and other steels. You have been doing this for years, but you have not been keeping up with the times.

Here's a quote from the knifeinformer.com website. "Still, the basic composition of the Damascus steel consists of two dichotomous structural types: ductility and brittleness. The former allows for compression of the material to absorb an increase of energy that would otherwise minimize or eliminate failure in the integrity of the blade. The latter is misleading, since brittleness generally relates to weakness. In this case, however, the word refers to the degree of flexibility needed to prevent shattering or breakage, as well as to facilitate edge sharpness.

This structural phenomenon ensures the Damascus blade to cut easily and remain durable. ...

On a deeper level, carbon nanotubes form in the steel to allow malleability and sustained strength during the forging process. The heavy concentration of carbon assures a decisive quality in steel integrity that guarantees high performance. This explains why carbon is crucial in the development of Damascus steel blades." Also, as you are aware, the name comes from Damascus, Syria, where the material was originated.

A lot of Damascus is made from 1095 and 15N20, a high carbon steel and a high nickle alloy used for saw blades. These two forge together easily and the pattern comes from the artists technique in layer, twisting and folding. Since the two materials are dissimilar, the acid etch reacts to them differently and reveals the "grain" of the pattern.

All that being said, it's a straightforward process. I have Damascus and "Swedish" Damascus blades from the big Italian houses, and George is correct; it does add something like $100 to the price, while in practical purposes there is little to no reason for the price jump. It might add 5% to the material cost, but that's about it. Duke forges "cable Damascus" from short sections of scrap steel cable. I have also sourced some beautiful blanks from Pakistan for $3-4 per inch, including shipping. Since Pakistan has a huge steel making industry, they are very competitive price-wise. When I buy non-Damascus knives I usually get D2, which is very high dollar on the open market, and tricky to harden.

What I would say to George in this case, is that he should buy what appeals to him aesthetically and any premiums he pays should be based on looks rather than performance/quality of material. Regardless if the knife comes from the US, Asia, Europe, etc. there are reasonable prices and crazy prices. With a switchblade, since it is in all likelihood a "closet queen", material doesn't matter much. If it's a user, Damascus is no magic bullet, and each steel has pros and cons. Cold Steel makes some really tough knives that are work horses on a budget price. Conversely you can choose the pick of the litter from Burn, Pardue, Vallotton and a slew of others that will place a serious hurt on your wallet. Just understand that the differences are more about looks than anything else. With the advent of the Internet, it's a world market and some serious players are appearing, even if some of them seem to work out of mud huts.
agkrismsg17.jpg
agkrismsg17.jpg (142.61 KiB) Viewed 392 times


The photo shows a guy building me a Damascus blade under some pretty austere conditions. Bill has already declared it junk. It is cheap, compared to some other knives that you have seen posted here (like 10-25% of the 'namebrand' knife). I have high hopes that it will be beautiful, but I may be disappointed. It's a crapshoot, and I have placed a small bet to get into the game.

So that's my two-cents based on 40+ years of engineering and a few years of intense Internet exploration. I have my helmet and flak-jacket on. Let's hear your rebuttal, Bill.
Dave Sause
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"And you're telling me this because, somehow, I look like I give a shit?"

"Let a smile be your umbrella and you're gonna get your dumb ass wet."

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whippersnapper
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Re: Damascus Leverlock

Postby whippersnapper » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:49 pm

The guys tough (or damn stupid). Forging/making blades barefoot...lol

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Bill DeShivs
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Re: Damascus Leverlock

Postby Bill DeShivs » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:07 pm

Dave,
You pretty much summed up what I said.
As far as a blade steel IN GENERAL TERMS, damascus offers nothing over any good steel.
Damascus is entirely over-hyped (and over used-especially on cheap knives).
I try to make it simple for people. A $40 Pakistani damascus knife is more than likely junk. It's pretty simple.
You can have great knives made in China, Pakistan, India, or anywhere else-if you know how and are willing to pay the price.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
http://www.billdeshivs.com
Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives.


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