Origin of the Kris switchblade

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big_slim
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Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by big_slim »

For some reason I'm really drawn to kris switchblades, don't really know why. I really like the cultural mishmash of an Italian stiletto with a curvy Asian style blade. Somehow it looks right though. In the "Switchblades of Italy" book, Sam Polk of the Latama company seems to be credited with coming up with the kris switchblade, apparently he'd been strongly influenced by stories from his childhood about Malaysia and other exotic places. The curvy blade knives were mentioned in some of these stories and captured his imagination. Well, that sounded good to me and I hadn't seen any other switchblade knives made before the 1950's that had kris blades. Until tonight when I was reading the Automatic Knife Resource Guide and Newsletter Vol. 5, no. 1 (downloaded from Latama.net) and lo and behold there is an article about a George Ibberson and Co. (of Sheffield, England) Kris switchblade from the 1870's or so. I was really surprised, I had no idea the idea went back that far. That's the way it is with a lot of things though, something seems like a new idea but it turns out somebody already did it decades or centuries earlier. So now I'm wondering whether George Ibberson & Co. were the first to manufacture such a knife, or if there might be an even earlier version. Who knows but the Ibberson knife is a nice one, here's a pic of the knife from the newsletter:
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natcherly
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by natcherly »

Looks like the Italian Patent Office in their granting the Kris patent didn't really dig too deep.
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daddyloko
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by daddyloko »

The Kriss blade is my favorite style as well.
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john
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by john »

Hello big_slim,
Nice detective work. I always thought it was Sam who introduced the first Italian stiletto with a Kris blade. The Ibberson knife is beautiful.
Here's a photo of one that I just received on Monday; 33cm, nickel silver bolsters, Made by Renzo Pascotto from Maniago, Italy.
John
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big_slim
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by big_slim »

That Pascatto swing guard is a real beauty, I like it. The thing that really struck me about the Ibberson knife is that the blade profile is almost exactly the same as the 1950's Stilettos by Latama and other Italian makers. There are a lot of ways you could interpret a traditional Kris style blade, some have more curves, some have only one or two curves, some have a more dramatic "S" style curvature, etc. The fact that the blade profile that Sam Polk used was so similar to the Ibberson knife makes me wonder if he had seen a similar knife before, or maybe was just "channeling"...
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by orangeboy »

Sam Polk didn't invent the kris blade. Sam was a good guy but it was really his Father, Jacob Polincovsky, that was 99.9% responsible for all Latama switchblades.

Pasquale Patrizio was responsible for designing the 1950 kris blade for Italian stilettos.
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big_slim
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by big_slim »

The "Switchblades of Italy" book credits the idea for the Kris blade as coming directly from Sam. Pasquale Patrizio's signature is on the copy of the patent in the back of the book however.
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by orangeboy »

big_slim wrote:The "Switchblades of Italy" book credits the idea for the Kris blade as coming directly from Sam. Pasquale Patrizio's signature is on the copy of the patent in the back of the book however.
Actually that's 12 out 15 years out of date. Even the author's os SOI admit that. A new book with corrected and true facts and not theories is really need for Italian switchblade collectors. And that's not truly Patrizio's signature. That name was written by the "Italian Notary."

Jacob' Polincovsky, the owner of Latama and Father of Sam Polk had to buy the rights from Pasquale Patrizio for 20,000 Lire. I just made a big post about his on SharperDeals last month.

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big_slim
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by big_slim »

I just checked out your sharperdeals post, very interesting stuff. My original point mainly was that the idea of the kris switchblade seems to predate the 1950's Italian stiletto makers by many years. I was mainly wondering if the designer of the 1950's Kris blade switchblades was aware of the earlier version or possibly versions of the knife. As I say, the blade shape and design of the 50's kris stilettos is strikingly similar to the older Ibberson knife given all the possible variations of a kris style knife blade. An updated switchblade book would be most welcome :)
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by orangeboy »

The blades do look a little alike, but the Sheffield piece in the picture is actually upside down.
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big_slim
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by big_slim »

attached is a pic of a 50's Latama, I think the blade shape is more than a little alike, do a google search of Kris or Kriss or Keris and you come up with all kinds of different blade shapes and styles. But that's just my perspective. I really would like to know if George Ibberson & co. was the real innovator here or if there are still earlier versions. Polincovsky didn't pay much. 20,000 lire in 1950 was about $32. Or about $320 in today's dollars.
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john
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by john »

The Kris blade was actually invented accidentally in the early 30s. Moe from the Three Stooges stabbed Curly in the head and the result was a Kris blade.
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Viking45
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by Viking45 »

Interesting information. I have several kris stilettos and hope to get a few more some day.
One of my 11" kris knives has brass bolsters with snakewood scales. (I sold the 9" stag)
The other is a 13" stag. (these are Bernie's pics from the listing,I haven't taken any of my own yet)

Too bad they didn't make a 5mm kris,that would be real cool.

John your new edition is incredible. 8) Just got a new polishing cloth if you need me to wipe it down for you :twisted:
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lance
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by lance »

Kris blades are gorgeous,they look great,and that's pretty much the extent of they're usefulness,from what I understand from Orange boys research Patrizio Pasquale is the inventor of the Kris blade on the switchblade knife..
Whats the old saying.? There s nothing new under the sun..and shoot it's not uncommon for two people to have the same idea at the same time completely,unknown to each other.
There's a similar story with the square button latama,as queen cutlery was working on the same thing at the same time..I think latama just came to patent and to market first.
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Re: Origin of the Kris switchblade

Post by ILikeStilettos »

I own a few Kris bladed automatic knives but I wouldn't go so far as to describe them as my favorites. They are pretty much impractical other than display. I've seen more than a few vintage ones that have been sharpened as if they had a conventional edge; results being that they lose their profile. The original shape remains in the spine and centerline, but the "cutting" edge now looks only slightly rippled and no longer matches the other two.

I think this stems from a fundamentally flawed design. In the Moro Kris knives of the early twentieth century, you start with a fairly wide (1-1/2" - 2") blade and big, generous curves. Those blades were 6-12" long. (I'm no expert, I'm guessing.) It's fairly easy to get in there with a file or small round stone and sharpen the entire concave or convex curve to make a sharp and practical weapon. Stress on the word practical, we're seeking functionality. Now if you narrow the profile to less than a inch and shorten it below 6", it's very difficult to reproduce the shape. I have Italian ones, and I've seen the odd rarity from Havlin and Panak, but most builders avoid the shape. It's just damned hard to do. I have an idea or two about creating one in CAD, but it's going to be quite an effort. I have had multiple requests to do this, but I doubt that anyone will be building them.

The classic Kris switchblade (if there is such a thing) uses a sine wave for the center grind. This pattern is rotated up to form the spine and down to form the edge, thus creating a taper from point to tang; the peaks and valleys align perfectly vertically as you move up and down the length of the blade. Grinding this constantly changing set of arcs is a real challenge to the cutler's skills. If you examine the Italian ones closely you will see that the grinds come to an edge only at the peaks, the valleys are unsharpened flats. The valleys need a deeper cut to meet at an edge, but this throws off the three matched sine waves. You don't notice when you have a big knife with a lot of flat in the center. On a switchblade, it's glaring and obvious.

I've also seen a few of what I would call pseudo-Kris blades. These start as traditional centerline grinds to which a set of curves are added. They simply look like scalloped blades, they are just "off".
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