Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

[Jeff]

INOX and GOM INOX are found commonly on Massaro.

[dp68]

My experience with Italian cars has been the same. Doesn't matter if its a Ferrari or a Fiat the quality sucks. I worked on Italian cars for several years. Italian Products are stylish, expensive and shoddily made. Why should their knives be any different.
I wonder what arthas opinion on this is?
dp68

[Razor_54]

With demand comes supply and don't think this will ever change.

[Milu]

My experience with Italian cars has been the same. Doesn't matter if its a Ferrari or a Fiat the quality sucks. I worked on Italian cars for several years. Italian Products are stylish, expensive and shoddily made. Why should their knives be any different.
I wonder what arthas opinion on this is?
dp68

The real problem, and most annoying point in my view; is that they are capable of incredibly high quality, be it knives or automobiles. But only when they want to or when forced. Let's face it they have developed a business model that works with no need to invest.

[Viking45]

We all understand quality and we all know that the Italian Stiletto looks pretty,we love the mystique and flash but the knife is just a collectable and not much else.
Thing is-we also know that they could be made better or at least more consistant.
It's been said a hundred times here but as long as there is a demand they are going to ship any and everything over here.
We have kind of set ourselves up for this by buying and accepting poorly made knives.
I have a few older Italian Fox knives (non-auto) that are very nice but still not German or American quality.


A few years ago(2006 I think) I was going to buy a new Moto Guzzi Griso but after I read some reviews the bike had all sorts of problems,one of them being an oiling problem and also needed lots of adjustments and had some quirks so I am happy I chose not to buy it.

[Bonzo]

I didn't initiate this topic. It's been bandied about on knife forums for years. I brought this up here because there are SO MANY here that are INVOLVED in one way or another.

Mr. Horizonroid,

I watched the furor heat into a convoluted explosion over at TSF some years ago. It did not accomplish one single solitary thing except for some seriously burned bridges. Remember the fish debacle? It's not going to change. It's been going on for decades. Most of my antique autos have defects. Mr. Bill is right and has the most logical responses here. You however, have my best wishes to continue your quest in picking at the neverending festering scab.

Best regards,

Bonz

[horizonod]

I didn't initiate this topic. It's been bandied about on knife forums for years. I brought this up here because there are SO MANY here that are INVOLVED in one way or another.

Mr. Horizonroid,

I watched the furor heat into a convoluted explosion over at TSF some years ago. It did not accomplish one single solitary thing except for some seriously burned bridges. Remember the fish debacle? It's not going to change. It's been going on for decades. Most of my antique autos have defects. Mr. Bill is right and has the most logical responses here. You however, have my best wishes to continue your quest in picking at the neverending festering scab.

Best regards,

Bonz

There is ONE undeniable truth Bill and Mr Bonz. The chances of things getting better certainly don't improve by remaining complaicent and saying nothing, do they?

The king has no clothes!!! If somebody tells him and he continues to walk around bare a$$ed he can't say he wasn't warned. This thread is chock full of constructive critisism should anybody care to look at it from that perspective.

My bread isn't buttered at all.
What I'm telling you is that, in all likelihood, quality control won't improve. Other measures have to be taken.
Most of the people that sell over there don't make half of what they sell. I'm not making excuses for the makers, I'm just stating facts. Business in Maniago is not done the same way it is here. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. I have given you the only solutions that I have been able to come up with after many years of thought. Take it or leave it.
Why even sell a product that gives you so much trouble? Have them made here. It could be done better, but it would be expensive.

I realize what you are saying Bill but things won't change unless Maniago feels like changing. They are really in a very envyable position having a product that they can make quickly and poorly and not be able to supply their market fast enough.

As far as "why do 'you' sell a product that gives you so much trouble". I've said that we do not buy directly from Italy because we had too many rejects, consistently screwed up orders, communication problems, etc. etc. Since we buy from "distributors" stateside they cull or tweak the majority "bad apples" from the bunch before we get them. We still get some clunkers but not nearly as many as if we ordered direct.

I'm not bringing this up because it a serious prolem for us, I bring it up because, as a community, there are a whole bunch of people who DO buy direct who have been taking it in the shorts for a LONG time. It's just not right and, no matter how unlikely it might be, Maniago certainly isn't going to change anything if we don't at least TRY to get a message across to them.

Today they happily and haphazardly supply the semi unexplainable demand for their product. If they keep selling tourist trap crap maybe the shine will wear off the product and someday they will be wondering where the demand went and how to get it back. With the number of dissatisfied customers and bad examples of their quality and workmanship floating around, if demand would dry up it may take some work to get back.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm "bashing" Maniago. I think I'm stating the facts as most people seem to see them. If "the facts" seem like "bashing",...............well, whos fault is that? I guess it's all in the way every individual looks at things.

[Viking45]

"If you change nothing,noting changes"
In other words if we sit and do nothing,nothing is going to get better.
J.A.C. in my opinion had the best suggestion.
Someone needs to step up and do one or two things- Take note of all the complaints,file them into a notebook and send this list to the person(s) in question.

The maker will either take this to heart and consider better QC or continue making crap because the market is growing and demand stronger than ever.(I think the Italian pride factor is long gone)
The internet itself is partly to blame because of sites like YouTube and people showing off thier knives and reaching thousands of non-collectors that are beating Google to death finding out where they can get a knife like that!
It's this wave of demand that is putting a dent in the serious seller/collectors wallet.
Because the non-collector(and there are thousands!) just wants one knife so he is going to the first resource he comes accross. He/she may not be as critical if the horn has cracks,the blade peeks or has a lock that does not work.

Again we can come here and complain but if no action is taken I see no remedy.
It may or may not do any good but we could at least say we tried...and in my book that means something.
In person I am very laid back,quiet spoken but when I come here I like to joke,talk knives and just have fun reading other members posts.

However I would be willing with someone elses help to follow up on bringing this issue to the makers. It has to be done tastefully,tactfully and with respect. I want no part of going to them with an attitude. We have to show them the enormous numbers of unhappy customers and simply make them aware that many buyers are contemplating going elsewhere for thier supply.
I have no personal problem because I have bought all my Italians from good folk like right here at the TB.

The steel in these knives is low quality so my guess is that the handle material and brass are thier biggest overhead. It is obvious the labor is not hurting them too bad.
That alone may be the case-They may rely on the laborers themselves to oversee the final product.

I am only thinking out loud here because I see all sides of the story and only offering my 2 cents worth.

One final note: Hubertus was in my opinion a knife company above and beyond duty.The internet has brought that quality down severly.(Or at least they allowed it to happen)
I have seen things I never thought possible- Puma now makes crap in Spain and China and I don't care what anyone says,Kissing Cranes made fabulous knives,knives that rivaled any Boker at it's peak production. I have seen Robert Klaas knives so superb it was mind blowing.
Now KC is Chinese.
I said to myself the day Germany turns to China "I'm Done!"
So having said that,why wouldn't Italy,whom has always produced a lesser knife fall even father down the quality trail?

Damn shame

[Jeff]

The internet itself is partly to blame because of sites like YouTube and people showing off thier knives and reaching thousands of non-collectors that are beating Google to death finding out where they can get a knife like that!

I get questions on youtube all the time. I direct some of those people to Talkblade
They always tell me the same thing: they found a shellpuller on knifeshop.com I tell them that the shellpullers on knifeshop are overpriced, and they won't receive the one pictured on their site with a spear point. Also knifeshops shellpullers are crap and if they want a nice one like mine with solid nickel silver bolsters I can help them but their patience needs to last for 2 or 3 months til they get one (probably)

[Bill DeShivs]

You know, I find it pretty amazing that when I try to give a little insight into this problem that I am attacked as being "panicked," "consider myself a deity," or as "somebody that put stiletto cross guards on a perfectly good slim line massaro and tagged it a "leverletto".
What the hell is this all about? I simply gave my input to a question that has been asked many times over. As far as "bashing Maniago"-you have every right to. It just won't do you any good.
Horizonod, you asked-and I gave you the best advice I could. Why would I be panicked? Let me explain something to you. If everyone on these forums quit buying Italian products, it would not make a dent in their production. That's why I gave you the advice that I posted. I tried to help, but didn't tell you what you wanted to hear, so I'm lambasted elsewhere? Now I understand your hostility toward me.
As far as the Leverletto, it was a little more than putting guards on a Massarro. Materials and quality control played a large part, too. The Leverletto is the best selling automatic (except the generic stilettos) coming from Italy. Much of the success came because the knives were reliable. If current production is less than reliable, I have no control over it. Marketing has a lot to do with successful sales, too. Don't you wish you had designed it? And if you can't tell the difference between the two knives, I'm very sorry.
Now, here is the real kicker- over the years I have had requests to repair less than 15 Leverlettos. That's about a 1/1000 failure ratio. And guess what? I can't even get springs to repair them!
I have attempted to be helpful and gracious on the forums. I don't consider myself above anyone. To see how some of you REALLY feel about me upsets me greatly.

[Jeff]

Don't let it get to you Bill. I know there are thousands more that support you and your well spoken responses. Hopefully Horizonod will get over his little blame escapade and realize he's not gonna change anything with a negative attitude.

[Viking45]

Bill- You must have done something right. I think I am the only one here that does not own a Leverletto and it's not because I don't want one,I just have not got around to buying one yet.
I fell in love with them the first day I saw them on the Blade Auction a few years back.

I hope to buy a couple of kits and have MM customize one for me.

As for this subject,I have found it very interesting to hear all the input of others.

Bill,you have been most helpful and gracious.

[Viking45]

The internet itself is partly to blame because of sites like YouTube and people showing off thier knives and reaching thousands of non-collectors that are beating Google to death finding out where they can get a knife like that!

I get questions on youtube all the time. I direct some of those people to Talkblade
They always tell me the same thing: they found a shellpuller on knifeshop.com I tell them that the shellpullers on knifeshop are overpriced, and they won't receive the one pictured on their site with a spear point. Also knifeshops shellpullers are crap and if they want a nice one like mine with solid nickel silver bolsters I can help them but their patience needs to last for 2 or 3 months til they get one (probably)

Jeff I knew you had a video or two and I hope you didn't think I was being negative towards you in any way.
I was just metioning how Switchblade vids might have had an effect on the Italian knife market. YouTube reaches millions and millions so it has to have some kind of impact.
A lot of people go nuts over the videos and do all they can to get one.

I am jealous of your collection though

[Jeff]

Viking,
I appreciate that and you are right; many people do ask where to get switchblades on youtube but I only help the adults that sound serious about collecting. I wish people wouldn't ask me to sell them one though My videos are just to show others what my knives are like because I have always enjoyed checking out other peoples collections on youtube so I figure there are a few others out there with my taste in knives. I don't know anybody around my city that has a passion for these auto knives like I do and it's good to chat with others online that do.
Also, a little birdie told me about your latest custom you got. I can assure you that you have nothing to be jealous of when you own a unique MM crafted beauty like that one.

[Furcs]

As far as the Leverletto, it was a little more than putting guards on a Massarro. Materials and quality control played a large part, too. The Leverletto is the best selling automatic (except the generic stilettos) coming from Italy. Much of the success came because the knives were reliable. If current production is less than reliable, I have no control over it. Marketing has a lot to do with successful sales, too. Don't you wish you had designed it? And if you can't tell the difference between the two knives, I'm very sorry.

The earlier mention of the Chinese catching up with the Italian quality may be true, but in terms of the generic 'leveretto' it looks their model seems light-years away from the DeShivs design.
Reminds me that I should explain why I was asking about your ties with the leveretto was because of the quality produced, just seems above the curve as far as other Italian knives and wondered if it was your influence...

As I said, I'm a BIG fan of the Leveretto so I do wish I had designed it, but if I had it would have been a crappy knife. So I'm glad you did, instead.