Nearly had my OTF taken in questionable search

[dark2023]

I already touched on this in another thread but I'll give the full story here as it was quite intense and questionably legal on the officers' part.

I was in a car with some friends and the front headlight had died earlier that day, the owner of the car was not able to get it replaced on such short notice. This got us stopped while driving through town (Charlotte). The officers asked to search the vehicle (CMPD regularly does this without provocation or reason), while they did it they made us all get out and then demanded the IDs of all 5 people in the vehicle, we complied. Once they found nothing in the vehicle (including prying the door panels up to look behind them and other "over the top" searching protocols) they began to ask if they could search us individually, starting with the driver. When they got to me last I first refused a search, citing my rites and the fact that there was NO probable cause. However I quickly recanted because it was getting late and we really had better places to be than by the side of the road.

They had already taken my buddies side opener (boker Kalashnikov) but had no issue with it. When they searched me, they took my rumble OTF (microtech clone), first the officer who took the thing had no idea what to do with it. He wanted to open it but was not sure how exactly, another officer came over and after musing "WOAH an OTF knife" he showed the guy how the button worked. They were both impressed. After that they fed me line about how "these are illegal without a military ID" (utter BS), and I had to cite state law which says that as long as it's not concealed and does not have a double edge, then it it legal for me to carry as long as it isn't concealed; as the pocket clip was obviously visible out side of my pocket, the knife was not concealed. The first officer gave me a line about "oh, you've done some homework eh?" and they placed my knife on top of our car along with my friend's which was already up there.
They talked quietly with one another for a moment and eventually let us all leave, they also stated that we were not to retrieve our blades from the roof of the vehicle until after they were completely gone (3 units by this point, 5 officers total)

What really pissed me off about the whole scenario is how they first made the driver blow into a breathalyzer and then preform test to prove he was not drunk even though we were pulled for reason in no way related to drunk driving and they had no reason to suspect it (no one in the car had drank anything alcoholic in at least a day, and there were no containers in the vehicle), then they searched the car and all containers in it, including a bookbag, in a very aggressive manner, even throwing clothes on the ground and, as stated, prying up door panels. Again this was done with no suspicion of anything, we had done nothing illegal and they never cited any probable cause. Lastly, the searched all of us after demanding we identify ourselves, they got particular rude and accusatory after I stated that I did not want to be searched and would not legally consent. In the process of searching the vehicle they called for 2 more units to join them and help. 1 person in our group made some comments like "those were just washed" when they threw his packed clothes on the ground but otherwise we never spoke rudely to the officers or insulted them. Most of us barley even spoke unless directly addressed.

[Viking45]

I would normally have to say something must have made them suspicious.
But Mr. Dark you have always been a well spoken and intelligent young man and I am going to assume you have friends with the same virtues.
What you have here is your youth- A car full of young folk and some frustrated police officers that are used to smart-mouth young people with some weed or some kind of smoking paraphernalia or booze.
However they were in their right albeit they went overboard with the door panel business.
Example it is not against the law to change lanes without a turn signal but this gives them a right to pull you over, question you,check ID's of driver/passengers etc.
I personally have no problem with this but they should not damage a vehicle during a search.
Sometimes common sense or lack of comes into play. A car full of young folk totally clean but took time to stash some weed in a door panel? Really defies logic.
I have a huge respect for cops and we have to remember they too are human and are used to dealing with the scum in our world and are puzzled when they come across a group of young people not on drugs or booze.

A burned out headlight,taillight,turn signal etc gives all LE reason to check it out...but again I say they(cops) over reacted in your case and chalk this one up to you and your friends keeping it cool and everything worked out,you guys kept your knives,no tickets issued and a little inconvenience ensued but no real issue.

One last note,this cop and his buddies were indeed puzzled your car had no booze,drugs etc and will keep this in mind in the future because if they pulled you over again for a trivial stop and went through these motions they would indeed have a lawsuit on their hands.

[Veech12]

I'm glad you weren't shot. They shoot some folks for far less.

[jim d,]

Sorry to read of your inappropriate treatment. This doesn't make sense to me. First, the way you were treated and then the fact that there were 5 officers and 3 cars there. From your description I'm guessing the ordeal took a fair amount of time. I know that while Charlotte isn't exactly Detroit when it comes to crime, it is a big city and has its share so there were undoubtedly more important things the police could have been spending their time doing. It makes me wonder if they had you and your friends confused with some other people they were looking for.

Jim

[daddyloko]

Sounds like the whole PD was in force that night

[tequiza]

I'm glad you weren't shot. They shoot some folks for far less.

Mark this day down in history, for once I agree with veech

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk

[natcherly]

Given the resources they had in play during this episode, you might surmise they were looking for another group of young people. Then again, some cops are jerks just like the general population; however, these guys carry guns and have power. A heady brew for the classic jerk.

As to the clip provided by pete, who in their right mind picks up a pellet gun that looks like the dreaded "assault rifle" and wanders around a store waving it left and right. The answer is perhaps being on the phone deprives folks of common sense in that their focus is not on what they are doing but on the conversation they are having. I can almost always identify a driver using his / her cell. They are not fully engaged, drifting side to side, going slower than the other traffic, etc. Sadly the poor guy was not thinking in real time.

[Vagrant]

Driving [while talking on a phone] has about the same accident rate, as drunk driving

[tequiza]

I'm willing to bet a dollar to a dime that this is how it was played out.
5 kids riding in a car minding their own business, two cops see them and say, lets pull them over and we'll probably find an open beer can, or maybe a joint and we can take them in and spend the rest of our shift at the station booking them, drinking coffee and eating doughnuts.
Hit the blue lights, one cop to drivers door, the other to passenger side, no smell of booze or drugs, oh hell, what to do now I know, breath test, nothing again, lets search them, bet we'll find a pack of rolling papers or maybe a joint, nothing again, I know, pry open the door panels, $hit, nothing there either, now enter the legal knives, BINGO, we got them now, Dark explains the law to them, damn, this is getting serious, call in 3 more cops, now we have 5 cops at a non event holding up 5 kids that were just riding around minding their own business.
After realizing their screw up they let the kids go, but tell them to not touch the knives till their out of sight I gotta hand it to you guys for not breaking out in uncontrollable laughter over that one

[tequiza]

Given the resources they had in play during this episode, you might surmise they were looking for another group of young people. Then again, some cops are jerks just like the general population; however, these guys carry guns and have power. A heady brew for the classic jerk.

As to the clip provided by pete, who in their right mind picks up a pellet gun that looks like the dreaded "assault rifle" and wanders around a store waving it left and right. The answer is perhaps being on the phone deprives folks of common sense in that their focus is not on what they are doing but on the conversation they are having. I can almost always identify a driver using his / her cell. They are not fully engaged, drifting side to side, going slower than the other traffic, etc. Sadly the poor guy was not thinking in real time.

David, watch the video again, this time along with the 911 call, this kid was set up from the start, he didn't have a chance, look at the aisle on the left, two cops could have gone to the end of it while the other cop distracted him by just asking for the time, or whatever, and the two cops could have grabbed him and defused the situation.
At no time on the video did he point the gun at anybody, he was swatted, that what MDA advocates, their part of bloomburgs anti-gun nut cases, check out their facebook page sometime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nMJ2gV_WLo

[natcherly]

OK, I watched the video with the 911 call. The fuse was really lit by the 911 caller who said a man was pointing the gun at people and then trying to load it. The man's description, black in black clothing, certainly didn't help but only added fuel to the fire. A cop coming into that situation would be very concerned for his own safety as well as that of others. High adrenalin. If the kid was set up, it was so done by the tone and info supplied by the 911 caller. Can't see it, but if the kid pointed the gun at an officer, then shooting him would be automatic.

There was a similar situation in the SF Bay Area some months ago. A kid was walking along the road with an AK 47 airsoft that had the red muzzle tip removed. That tip is put on there to clearly identify the gun as non lethal. He had been playing with it at a nearby park, and someone apparently reported it. A passing Dept'y Sheriff saw him and told him to drop the weapon . The kid did not drop it as instructed but moved it toward the officer. You know the result.

People, even young persons, need to think and be responsible for their actions, something missing in these two cases.

[Bonzo]

I'm glad you weren't shot. They shoot some folks for far less.

Mr, Veech,

Yeah, the 2 NY cops blown away sitting in that car must have been plotting an attack against the multitudes of honest law abiding New Yorkers. Good thing that nice young man saved the city from extermination, and then became a self appointed saint...

Best regards,

Bonz

[Tom19176]

Dark, good thing you know the law. I often tell people to print out the law and carry it if you feel you are in compilance. You ran into some officers who are "sportsman too" as they were purely on a fishing trip with you and your friends a few of the fish they saw swimming by. If you were the subject of a stop based on you fitting the description of someone they were looking for, the stop would have been different. I never would grant permission for them to search, but that is me. Glad they did not take the knife, and understood you were aware of your rights......I have a 22 year old son, who just got his BS degree in Police forenic science and criminal justice, and wants to serve in law enforcement ( I was in that field for years), and I tell him to be very aware he is in a targeted age group that police will pull over for little to no real cause. Of course this also happened near the end of the month.....Need to make those numbers for each month....I was talking to my friend on Friday and he was in search for any arrest as he was off for two weeks this month and had to have at least one "collar" as he is in a special crime reduction unit that requires that.....Not very fair, but that is what many departments have come too. Mostly in cities. Consider this issue too, when there is a spike in robberies in an area, a common order is to go out and make arrest for weapons possession. This is a common response so the public is told there have been numerous arrest of persons carrying weapons to stop the recent up tick in robberies. It is good PR, but does little to stop the real bad guys and makes people criminals who never were before.....

[dark2023]

Thanks for all the replies.

Honestly, I'm just glad that I got to keep my knife and didn't go downtown. Though, I really wish the whole incident could have been avoided in the first place.

[sammy da blade]

It's really a bunch of bull shit! As far as profiling goes that's bull shit too! You had a headlight out, is that a felony? They should have gave you a warning ticket and sent you on your way so they can get to the business of stopping crime. We need police but when a bunch of
friendsare cursing breaking no laws but a headlight violation WTF?