AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

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horizonod
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AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by horizonod »

We got in an order of custom coil spring humpbacks in horn with nickle silver bolsters and nicely marked D2 blades from FrankB that are KILLER in every way, accept for most of the blades being significantly off center to the point of touching the liners.

I'm being told that "it is impossible to have blades centered because of the horn" and "This is normal with this horn". "in fact this is not a problem for us because these knives can't be centered and we sell in that way the last editions too!"

This makes no sense to me since a few are centered and it just seems kind of unbelievable to me that the scales cause the blades to pull off center clear to the liners.

We have received the dark horn. Blondes will be here today, hopefully. I hope they are better.

What do you guys think. Is this "normal"? Is there a "fix"?

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Last edited by horizonod on Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Rave
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by Rave »

Might be a dumb question,but are the blades straight? :|
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horizonod
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by horizonod »

Blades are straight.

Sara B claims that the horn "makes it impossible" to center the blades. Not only does that make no sense but a few blades are centered and one touches the liner on the opposite side. Why would the horn torque the blade to one side? There is horn on both sides.

I'm being told that "these are perfect and no problem". I HATE it when somebody makes a mistake then tries to bullshit their way out of it. These are limited edition customs for serious collectors. What serious collector is going to buy this line of BS even if it IS straight from the maker? :roll:

I'm gonna try to fix that pic so it fits on the page. :wink:
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natcherly
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by natcherly »

With all due respect to Frank and Sarah, their definition of "perfect" is not the same as that of serious collectors. That said, I have had horn scaled knives sent to me that literally would not open fully, had noticeable gaps between scale and liner, etc. Changes in temperature, but more importantly humidity, were responsible. After a few days, things stabilized and it was all good. Can't say I really noticed the lack of a centered blade after the stabilization occurred. I just checked a bunch of my Frank B picks and classic stilettos. The vast majority are centered. Could it be they used "green" horn which had not fully taken to its new format after being steamed and flattened?
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horizonod
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by horizonod »

Hey Mr Natch!!! How you been? Looks like social media is taking a toll of the forums. Surprisingly quite in the old neighborhood.

Sara said they always use "old horn" because it's more stable. I know horn and other natural materials twist, swell, contract, etc with changes in temp and humidity but I'm simply not buying this reasoning. #1. The scales are pinned to the liner and do not touch either bolster. It would take quite a bit of torque to bend the knife and a minor miracle to bend the vast majority in nearly an identical way. There is horn on both sides, why are most listing in the same direction to the same degree? #2. 2/3rds of them touch the liner in the right side and 1 of 20 touched the left liner, 1 is near dead center and the rest are off center to lesser degrees. Some won't even open because of the bind.

At first I sent her pictures with no complaints about anything, she replied "Sorry!". Then the excuses. Then she just said "if you not want them I send you address to send them to somebody who sell for me. No problem. Very easy sell." All I wanted to know was if anything could be done to fix them or something so that I would be getting what I had paid for.

For the ones that are bound shut she suggests I take a screwdriver or other tool and spread the liners. Really?? She says they were straight when they left Italy. What has happened to the world I once knew where people took responsibility for their mistakes and told the truth. I realize they don't want to take them back and I know they don't want to adjust the price to better represent the product we received but I don't want to have to sell limited edition, and VERY NICE, knives with the caveat of "but the blades are off center and the manufacturer says that's normal,...perfect, in fact."
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Viking45
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by Viking45 »

I have to go with Natch's theory,they may have used green horn that has not properly dried/cured thus pulling the thin brass liners one way or another.
As a wood worker this sounds feasible to me as wood and horn have similar properties.

Not sure how horn and stag react to humidity or lack of but this could be a possibility.
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Bill DeShivs
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by Bill DeShivs »

Or, the pivot pin hole is not straight......
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by jim d, »

Bill,

Your education of me is working. That is exactly what I was thinking.

Jim
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by JerrBear »

WELCOMENESS back, Nick!

Good to see you posting here wunst again times.
Sorry it's under such unpleasant circumstances. I hope you can get this resolved to your satisfaction...

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DonC
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by DonC »

You got me thinking so I checked the two I have.
The blonde horn came from Pioneer Valley Knives and the dark horn came from the SD Auction.
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Both lean towards the front when closed but not enough to interfere with their functioning.

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When open the blonde leans slightly to the right when looking from the back and the dark horn is pretty straight.

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I've seen a number of Frank B's as well as those from other producers that lean to one side or the other but none far enough to interfere with their operation.

The responses here have covered just about all of the conventional reasons for the blades to lean both open and closed. What's driving yours to be off center is probably a combination of all the factors listed.
Working with natural materials like horn, bone and wood is always going to make the piece subject to the effects of temperature and humidity ( I've left out my favorite of nuclear testing in Nevada but hey, it could be). When you add in construction tolerances it's just one more factor. I wish there were a definitive answer or a single cause that could be addressed but I doubt we'll ever be able to nail it down.

I feel for you and your problem especially with a large order but I think you've been hit with "the luck of the draw" on this one.

DonC
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Bill DeShivs
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by Bill DeShivs »

The horn is more than likely not the problem.
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horizonod
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by horizonod »

We all know italian knives have their issues but these are special knives at a premium price. I was told Frank himself assembled them (but I suspect differently).

I just hate unwrapping a candy bar and telling the maker that it smells like shit and having them tell me "that's the way they are supposed to smell, it's shit flavored chocolate. Very rare. If you don't want it there is a line of others waiting". Typical euro BS.

They never take responsibility, there is always an excuse and the dealer ends up holding the chocolate end of the stick. It's no wonder they are talking about closing up shop.

The horn thing doesn't wash. Unless the horn was badly torqued I can't see it bending the liners to the point the entire knife was out of alignment, especially so many exactly the same. The scales are pinned to the liners and they don't touch the bolsters at all. I have seen really bad warping cause problems but I see no visible warping on any of these scales.

I'm wondering if I wasn't sold a batch of rejects they "just happened to have laying around"? That makes more sense than the horn story.

A pity. These are really nice other than having off center blades. :cry:
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by Bill DeShivs »

The truth of the matter is that this type knife is very difficult to make perfectly under the best circumstances. Then, if you have slightly off-spec parts and hand assembly-you get things like this. I have often been tasked with correcting things like this. After a while, it gets pretty frustrating. I can't imagine putting them together.
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horizonod
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by horizonod »

I've straightened my share of blades using whatever method seemed most favorable but I've snapped a few doing so. Trying to straighten 20-30 stiletto blades isn't my idea of a good time and I don't think it should be on my plate. Personally I think that Sara should offer to adjust the price we agreed upon since I'm either going to have to attempt to adjust these physically or adjust the selling price. Either way the off center blades will cost me something, but compensating a customer doesn't seem to fit into the euro zone of fixing a problem. They provided a product that was not up to standards but, that's not their problem, seems to be they way they look at it.

I'm going to work on a few to see if they can even be adjusted. I'll proceed depending on how that goes,....................... :|
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Re: AWESOME coil spring D2 horn humpbacks,. with a "twist"

Post by Bill DeShivs »

You probably can just bend some of them. Peening the pivot in the right place can also bring the blade in line.
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
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Factory authorized repairs for:
Latama, Mauro Mario, LePre, Colonial, Kabar, Flylock, Schrade Cut Co., Presto, Press Button, Hubertus, Grafrath, Kuno Ritter knives, Puma, Burrell Cutlery.
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