Responsabilities- Manufacturer / distributor / dealer

[Milu]

As long as people keep buying crap there is no motivation for the manufacturer to improve quality. That is the reality.

How much responsability should the distributor and/or dealer bear? That is much harder. How big is the distributor and/or dealer? unless it's a big operation and a significant part of the manufacturer's turnover they would have very little influence.

The customer? Well if the customer accepts crap then the manufacturer, importer, distributor, dealer and reseller have no need to improve. BUT let's not forget that in some locales for some buyers getting a swithcblade is not so easy and returning it is often not a sensible option. However, I believe that anyone in the manufacturing or sales chain that takes advantage of this is not doing themselves any favours in the long term, I believe one needs to look after clients and work for long term relationships.

I'm a management consultant. Quality assurance is a large part of the work I do. I've seen similar work situations with similar problems to the Maniago cottage industry. Quality improvements require a desire for change before anything else and that is market driven; either because the "big" client demands it or because it's the only way to increase sales or market share.

One of my clients is a telecommunicatons marketing and repair business. Because their market requires products to be cheap and to work as described they have established an independant qc business in China to oversee and check all products before shipping. They also maintain a full laboratory and warehouse facillity to handle problems after shipment and resolve any warranty issues. This is market driven.

If any manufacturers are reading this, I work mostly in Italy and I'm always looking for work

[Bonzo]

Mr. Milu,

Well said. I hereby nominate you to do all the QC for the Maniago shipping. A nominal fee, of course, would be applied to all the blades shipped. The only forseeable problem however, is Mr. Horizonroid would be getting far fewer rejects and would have nothing left to bitch about.

Best regards,

Bonz

[jim d,]

Milu,

I'm a management consultant. Quality assurance is a large part of the work

Same with me

Jim

[Boo]

Hi,

I am in Europe and can buy Italian knives a lot cheaper from Italy as the shipping costs are a lot cheaper. Even though I can do this I am happier to pay more for the knives from Rick at Sharper Deals as the quality can be guaranteed. If Rick says the knife is straight and tight you can be sure it will be.

Unfortunately, this has not always been the same with knives supplied from Italy.

Best Regards.

[gramps]

Hi,

I am in Europe and can buy Italian knives a lot cheaper from Italy as the shipping costs are a lot cheaper. Even though I can do this I am happier to pay more for the knives from Rick at Sharper Deals as the quality can be guaranteed. If Rick says the knife is straight and tight you can be sure it will be.

Unfortunately, this has not always been the same with knives supplied from Italy.

Best Regards.

That's not to say Rick didn't receive them crooked and loose, at least a percentage of them, for all I know he may have received all of them in need of tweaking ...Frank tells me he has people here in the States that do that sort of work for him, that he can refer me to , but I tweaked them myself ...The point is why should we have to ...And if I'm wrong about what Rick does, then have Rick show up to say different . Rick is one of the guys who does a lot of mangling on those knives he receives from Frank , he has to straighten them out and tighten them up if need be. Replacing scales isn't all Rick does or can do . The point is, why should we have to tweak any at all, or even have the knowledge to do so . They should come to us ready to sell, not fix .

[horizonod]

How would the manufacturer know it was going to break? .

Ok Bill. Their shody workmanship and track record of turning out knives that are sub par on a regular basis aside.

I'll give them somethng they've never given me, the benefit of the doubt.

So they didn't KNOW it was going to break, fair enough. Will they stand behind their product and reinmmburse us for our shipping because this one in a million defect happened? I doubt it.

It's not only a good example of their shody workmanship biting somebody else in the butt and non existent quality control but it's testiment to them not being HONORABLE enough to back up their product or the warranty that they advertise.

Mr. Milu,

Well said. I hereby nominate you to do all the QC for the Maniago shipping. A nominal fee, of course, would be applied to all the blades shipped. The only forseeable problem however, is Mr. Horizonroid would be getting far fewer rejects and would have nothing left to bitch about.

Best regards,

Bonz

What's the difference between "bitching" about something and trying to "improve" something for everybody?

I didn't initiate this topic. It's been bandied about on knife forums for years. I brought this up here because there are SO MANY here that are INVOLVED in one way or another. It's interesting to me to note the different tones of people answers depending on which side THEIR bread is buttered.

I may be a simpleton but to me the SOLUTION to the problem seem very simple. It has to START in Maniago with spending a few extra minutes per knife making them right. The ones that get through get caught at QC and go back to the line for tweaking. In all fairness, time is money so the Italians could tack on a few bucks for the extra time. I believe buyers would appreciate the better quality and be more than happy to pony up a few extra bucks for a truely "handcrafted Italian knife" manufactured to meet their own hype and their customers subsequent expectations.

[whippersnapper]

I find it quite refreshing seeing a few folks who make their livings (or have tried to), finally speak out about the poor quality. Most, treat the makers like gods, and kiss butt hoping to get anything. When they do get their order, better then half the time it is wrong. Italy always has an excuse, though.

For the life of me, I don't know why it has been put up with so long. Must be guys like Rick just like working on the things. Maybe Italy should just ship parts...It might be easier for everybody.

[Viking45]

I have apprx 30 some stilettos and all are F. Beltrames,mostly pre-Frank B stamp.
Just wondering if anyone can tell thier experience with AKC and AB's knives concerning quality and number of bad apples compared to Frank B's?

I am very fortunate,I bought almost all of mine at the Blade Auction and only bought the actual knife in the photo.
Common sense told me to never buy a knife when the seller used a generic photo to sell a knife.
All my knives are in perfect working order,sits deep and locks work smoothly etc etc

I did however get screwed on the most expensive stiletto in my collection. It was an 11" stag with damascus and when it arrived I instantly noticed the tip of the blade was "split" or the layers were seperated during the process(I really don't know the term to discribe the defect)
I contacted the seller right away and he basically said "tuff luck".

The other time the seller showed a clear photograph of a "numbered" Limited Edition with absolutely gorgeous stag,some of the best I have ever seen.
I get a knife with a higher number and the stag was nowhere near as nice.
All he told me was he would give my money back but I wanted the knife in the pic. I kept the knife he sent but just never gave him any business again.

[whippersnapper]

I forgot to ask: What happened with Renzo? Seems like people were all pretty happy with his product. Doesn't seem like I have seen much as of late.

Did Grampa C and Frank make him disappear?

[eastcoastsniper]

I've been buying from Renzo for months and have been nothing but pleased with quality, communication and speedy delivery. I've never had to even ask for a refund or return anything. (3 wholesale orders) Most of the stilettos in my collection are Renzos and they are by far my favorite (they ALL work as intended).

[Bill DeShivs]

My bread isn't buttered at all.
What I'm telling you is that, in all likelihood, quality control won't improve. Other measures have to be taken.
Most of the people that sell over there don't make half of what they sell. I'm not making excuses for the makers, I'm just stating facts. Business in Maniago is not done the same way it is here. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. I have given you the only solutions that I have been able to come up with after many years of thought. Take it or leave it.
Why even sell a product that gives you so much trouble? Have them made here. It could be done better, but it would be expensive.

[gramps]

I have apprx 30 some stilettos and all are F. Beltrames,mostly pre-Frank B stamp.

How do you know they are "Pre - Frank B." they may as well been Renzo's, because he sells his stilettos with a stamp that says "Stainless Steel Italy" no name and they would look just like Frank's only without a name "FRANK B" stamped in them and the other thing about Renzo's is that they all were straight and worked properly and there were a ton of those around for many years...A lot of people may of thought they were pre Frank stamped knives...Then again maybe you have some pre frank stamped that Frank put out, I'm just saying how do you know for sure?

[Viking45]

I have apprx 30 some stilettos and all are F. Beltrames,mostly pre-Frank B stamp.

How do you know they are "Pre - Frank B." they may as well been Renzo's, because he sells his stilettos with a stamp that says "Stainless Steel Italy" no name and they would look just like Frank's only without a name "FRANK B" stamped in them and the other thing about Renzo's is that they all were straight and worked properly and there were a ton of those around for many years...A lot of people may of thought they were pre Frank stamped knives...Then again maybe you have some pre frank stamped that Frank put out, I'm just saying how do you know for sure?

For one thing,I bought several of them directly from Francesco Beltrame's website and the other I bought from well-known and trusted sellers and they said they were F.Beltrame's.
So I relly have no reason to believe otherwise.
For absolute certainty? No.
But you have a good point. Is the stamps on the other knives you mentioned exactly like the pre Frank B stamp?

I said in one of my first posts here that years ago when I bought my first few Beltrame knives I suggested to Frank personally(e-mail) that he should put his name on his knives.
Very shortly afterwards he came out with the Frank B stamp.
I'm sure my suggestion alone did not prompt him to do so but I like to think it did

[gramps]

For one thing,I bought several of them directly from Francesco Beltrame's website and the other I bought from well-known and trusted sellers and they said they were F.Beltrame's.
So I relly have no reason to believe otherwise.
For absolute certainty? No.
But you have a good point. Is the stamps on the other knives you mentioned exactly like the pre Frank B stamp?

Buying directly from Francesco Beltrame's website doesn't necessarily mean that he's selling you knives he made in his shop, unless they had his stamp Frank B. on them, then even at that the parts were from everyone else in Maniago...

I purchased some leverlocks off him that he got off of Angelo C. of AKC.
That's why it's called the Cottage Industry, they all have some sort of piece of the action when it comes to making the parts, and when one might need to for-fill an order but doesn't have them on hand, he may get some from another...

I purchased 11" stilettos from Frank directly, and got them without any stamp at all, Nada, nothing at all, not even Stainless Steel stamped on them, believe me or not, how do you think I felt when I received those in my order... so you decide...

[Viking45]

Thanks for the info Gramps,interesting stuff. I can say this- All mine are very nice quality and I am happy with them whoever made them.
One of my purchases from F.Beltrame was a beautiful stag lever and someone told me it was probably a Massaro. He said he didn't think Frank made levers at his shop.

I have noticed that some 13" have "INOX" and nothing else and another 13" has "INOX" and "FRANK B"/Italy on the back.
Some of the 9's and 11" have "STILETTO" "Italy" or "FRANK B"/Italy.
This makes me think the "INOX" may have been made in another factory.
But what do I know

Ahh the tales surrounding the Maniago mystery.